Abortion

[Lena]

should abortion be made illegal? on one hand, abortion is against universal law, and it says in TP that we need discipline on earth (sorry I don't have the exact quote). on the other hand, not everyone is on the same page with ethics and religion, and we don't want the government influencing our freedom of choice too much. it is hard for me to tell in this situation what would be the "right" thing to do. I have some ideas but first I want to hear what your thoughts are on the subject.

[InfoSource]

Well I don't approve of abortion but making it illegal would not be useful, there are cases where abortion would be acceptable

For instance when the pregnancy can endanger the mothers life, or if a woman is raped then aborting the fetus can be justified, but there are also many cases I think where young girls are using abortion as a birth control method because there not practicing safe sex, and in these cases I think they are destroying potential lives because of their lack of responsibility.

Jailing them for abortion is not a good idea because you’re going to have a big cultural divide (even more so) between people who are pro-choice and pro-life

My hope is in the future technology would make abortion unnecessary, where if a woman has an unwanted pregnancy she can go to a clinic and the doctor can remove the fetus from her body, put it into an artificial womb and have it develop into a human being when the time comes and have people adopt these aborted babies, but that solution is perhaps a stretch, and it's not a perfect solution because from reading some abortion statistics there would a lot of babies (millions) around the world that would need to be adopted and most won't be, so that would leave many unwanted kids hanging around, so who would take responsibility over these kids? One idea I can think of is for the armed forces of each country to take responsibility over these kids with providing them the basic essential of life and having them serve their country at the same time, to give them that sense of purpose in their lives.

[shezmear]

I think females have the right to choose what takes place with in there own body,

I also think outlawing abortion will just push females to seek other means of getting an abortion, which will take us back to the dark ages of “back yard abortions”, which is a truly dreadful.

In fact, many of the females I know have had abortions for various reasons;

However nature is nature and universal law is universal law,

I really think may be the best way to approach this is to look at ways to circumvent falling in pregnant, or falling in pregnant with someone who you don’t want to have children with, or working on an environment that should one fall in pregnant, one has a support system to be looked after, so that it is not such a bad thing.

I really think it is up to the individual, and nobody should be judged or ridiculed for having an abortion, I think this is a step backwards,

Maybe the fact the females are having abortions is a deeper indication of what is lacking within our society.

After all…. bringing a child into the world… can be a true highlight of life….

[ptex]

This subject is one of the most difficult and complex issues, unfortunately well rooted in our societies, we can devote our thoughts to.

First, as all know, and as Thao mentions (and in Lena and Shezmear's posts too), abortion is not natural and therefore is frontally against natural law.

Second there's also Freedom of Choice.

It seems to me that people can certainly justify abortion under certain extreme circumstances but being an act against Natural Law this means that nature will always find the proper way to adjust the balance back (I think people call this Karma).

To put it simply, the answer to abortion is NO. It cannot be otherwise if you think carefully:

• Aren't we on this planet to experience the highest feelings we're capable of?
  How different is this yet-to-be-born child from all other human beings?
  Is it a matter of circumstances and twisted (mainly ignorant) judgement?
  Isn't it that everything that happens happens for a reason and, as Michel says in one of his interviews, everything that happens is related with Karma?
  What lessons could people learn here by going through the experience of having these babies? Even if the mother's life is in danger?

I know... this whole subject is immensely controversial but searching my feelings, and answering strictly on a personal basis, honestly I don't feel good about abortion of any kind!

Should it thus be ruled as illegal? To answer this maybe we could think of how would this be handled in a more advanced civilization like in Bakaratini or MU or (since in Thiaoouba doesn't make any sense asking this)? Do you think it would be allowed to abort under any circumstance? What would be the penalty for those who decided to ignore it? I know we are making a mistake to think this way because people then were very advanced spiritually, meaning that society as a whole was different and the same rules probably cannot apply.

Then could we consider that the guilt and the feeling of anguish and remorse to be penalty enough for the conscious ones? Or should we impose serious restrictions and penalties upon perpetrators?

Applying a discriminatory (one rule fits all) measure could be (as Shezmear rightly points) a step backwards. A case by case analysis would then probably be more effective.
I resist the idea of having heavy penalties but, simply thinking of it, is apparent that their lack could encourage further spread of such a dreadful practice. And honestly, due to the complexity of this issue, I don't see a definite answer.

On the other hand, a proactive step would be to educate people regarding not only about this issue but also towards the ways of spirituality, honesty... and, you know, I believe in giving a second chance to the deserving ones.

The preservation of life should be the Highest Priority among all other priorities!

[Lena]

women (and their partners) have to deal with the consequences of their actions and take responsibility. maybe abortion should only be leagle in the cases involving rape (I think that is the law in Egypt). but I have heard of some girls claiming to have been raped by their boyfriends to get thier parent's support for an abortion. this could potentially cause innocent guys to be jailed

I agree with shezmear about how maybe our society is lacking something which would make a female want to abort. I think the government needs to put more funds into better support programs for pregnant teens and also planned parenthood, so these girls won't feel like its the end of the world if they have a baby, and have less chance of getting pregnant in the first place.

In an advanced spiritual society I don't think abortion would be legal. remember how the first country in australia punished criminals very harshly and they had very little crime? but they had a system which was 100% accurate and just, something which has been lost on earth.

In USA at least, I think most criminals don't learn much from being imprisoned, some actually get worse. this probably would not be an appropriate punishment for someone who did an illegal abortion. fines wouldn't be effective either, because in the long run it'd be cheaper to pay the fine than having a child.

Life would never throw something your way that you couldn't handle. if you get pregnant and it's not meant to be, an accidental, natural abortion occurs. it's called miscarriage.

before the government tries to make abortion illegal, there are other areas I think they need to work on first: the criminal justice system, support programs for pregnant and sexually active teens.

[Robanan]

The preservation of life should be the Highest Priority among all other priorities!

If there are any laws to be there regarding such matters as abortion it should be the laws that are designed to preserve life. The implementation of these laws requires a collective cooperation of many social organs who are devoted to serving all the members of the society.

There is no need to make abortion illegal, such laws would only lead to torment and despair. Abortion should be legal but under the circumstances that the preservation of life is to be considered as the highest priority.

For the individual It all should naturally boil down to the choice, and the law should respect the choice to do or not to do abortion, how unversal law applies to people who are irresponsible and ignorant is not the care of the society is the care of nature; where, as is to be seen how individual irresponsibility and ignorance affects the society and other individuals so that corrective and preventive measures would be taken accordingly to the laws of society with respect to the laws of nature and the universe.

[Alisima]

In a society you always have moral and ethic problems. Abortion is one of them. Following certain logic you can easily say abortion is wrong, yet, from a different perspective, you can at least as easily say that abortion is good. So I can make a book of rules favoring abortion, yet I can also make a book of rules against abortion. The whole point of current society is getting the best set of rules, in this case regarding abortion. But such a book doesn't exist, or simply contradict another book. There is no universal law regarding abortion, it just isn't there. (In fact, there is no universal law at all.)

Why? Because abortion isn't universal, it is personal. It completely depends on the person undergoing the abortion whether it is good or not. There is no set of rules that can be applied, every case of abortion has it own rules.

Searching for a golden measure is ridiculous. You can only apply the same rules to the same objects, in the same situation. But, as heraclitus already has said: you cannot step in the same river twice. So, knowing it is impossible for an object to be in the same situation, the old logic cannot be applied. New logic has to be figured out.

Every case, every situation, needs a new set of rules. You cannot use the old rules, it won't work. You need fresh rules, so fresh that they are still flowering.

So, regarding abortion: show me the woman!! Then I'll make my stand.

[Vesko]

Alisima, unless there's something else, you are a total relativist, aren't you?

[Lena]

I agree with what you've said, Alisima, but unfortunately that isn't the way our society works.

[Robanan]

...abortion isn't universal, it is personal. It completely depends on the person undergoing the abortion whether it is good or not. There is no set of rules that can be applied, every case of abortion has it own rules.

If to consider that we aim to design a set of rules against or in favour of abortion then pretty much of what you say applies Alisima. I rather would focus on the social laws that are needed by the society in order to maintain its function of preservation and support of life, so that if cases of abortion would be needed to be processed, the right of the person to make the choice of doing abortion or not would be preserved as the person would know that giving birth to life, love, care, and taking responsibility of your own actions is not only more acceptable for others but is also materially supported by the law and the social executive branch of sincere people who have dedicated their life to social care.

In another topic we discussed what happens to individuals who are grown away from other people.

There is no universal law regarding abortion, it just isn't there. (In fact, there is no universal law at all.)

Nature is designed to work in a specific way, abortion brings agony to the person who has committed it, both moral and physical and in time even psychological. Consider the following:

Frida Kahlo (1907-1954), an influential artist from Mexico, used startling self-portraiture to explore her feelings of loss, loneliness, pain and vulnerability. This section describes the history of her experiences of miscarriage, child loss and therapeutic abortion and considers her paintings which reflect these experiences.
http://www.k-state.edu/english/janette/ ... ldles.html

How many people you know that would consciously choose to go through the same trauma and agony in their life? even so it happens again and again every single day on our planet. I'm talking about the Universal law and how ignoring it can lead to pain and suffering. It's the law that applies to the astral bodies if they consciously choose to damage their progress in life. It is according to this law that the fate of an astral body is decided, upon each eventual reincarnation.

My point is that there is no universal law regarding abortion, but I've invited you to consider other aspects of abortion to which universal law applies. There is no golden rule to follow as you say, but the best way for a society would be to allow the person to choose while at the same time be a manifestation of love and light of the universe for others and act responsibly and responsively toward the individuals who learn and are willing to learn how to choose the best out of the best through and with their own understanding. As you say: "show me the woman!! Then I'll make my stand"

[shezmear]

Alisima, unless there's something else, you are a total relativist, aren't you?

Relativist
rel•a•tiv•ism [rélləti vìzzəm]
n
belief in changeable standards: the belief that concepts such as right and wrong, goodness and badness, or truth and falsehood are not absolute but change from culture to culture and situation to situation
-rel•a•tiv•ist, n
Encarta ® World English Dictionary © & (P) 1998-2004 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.




Very astute vesko…



edited by Robanan: quote was fixed on this post

[Alisima]

Vesko said, Alisima, unless there's something else, you are a total relativist, aren't you?

Relativist
rel•a•tiv•ism [rélləti vìzzəm]
n
belief in changeable standards: the belief that concepts such as right and wrong, goodness and badness, or truth and falsehood are not absolute but change from culture to culture and situation to situation
-rel•a•tiv•ist, n
Encarta ® World English Dictionary © & (P) 1998-2004 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

Very astute vesko…

Very astute indeed. But not astute enough. That is: I am not relativistic. Although I admit it seems that way, I don't believe in standards at all. Because eventhough relativism speaks only about relative right and wrong, it still speaks about right and wrong (or high or low, or left or right or positive or negative.) I believe that right is essentially the same as wrong, no, better yet, I know that it is the same.

There is no golden rule to follow as you say, but the best way for a society would be to allow the person to choose while at the same time be a manifestation of love and light of the universe for others and act responsibly and responsively toward the individuals who learn and are willing to learn how to choose the best out of the best through and with their own understanding. As you say: "show me the woman!! Then I'll make my stand"

Yeah that pretty much sums it up. And I wish to say nothing more about it, until I ofcourse actually meet such a woman.

[Vesko]

Alisima, take no offense, but while I make no personal claim for the astuteness of my comment, "But not astute enough" is an inappropriate comment taking into consideration that I had said "unless there's something else" -- I clearly expected that you may not be what you seem to be and asked for your clarification.

Has this particular belief of yours been influenced by Zen philosophy, which you have referred to in previous posts?

(Of course, if we continue straying off off-topic, the conversation is going to be split.)

[shezmear]

Some females I know have aborted there child because the guy that the slept with claims he is not ready to be a farther, this personally makes my blood boil, this sounds to me like a cope out on his behalf.

Other women I know have had abortions because of monetary reasons they simply can’t keep there life style and living expenses and have children.

Other women have aborted there children because they don’t want to have a child by the farther, and again this can be for a number of reasons.

Other couples I know have had aborted because they think it would never work out,

I wonder how many women in third world countries would have abortions if they had a choice?

I remember watching a documtary and it showed in Africa that some of the women in tribes have a belief that if they eat smooth rocks, it will prevent them from falling in pregnant, so when the men leave again to go out hunting, all the women are out eating pebbles on there hands and knees, when I saw this I could not help but feel sorry for them

I think that following nature is good advice, and there is a simple solution to managing pregnancy.

It is what is called a “maybe baby”, it is a device that you put a little bit of suliver in and you can tell wither you are ovulating or not, this way you can figure out your cycle, and when is a good time to “make love”, the benefits, no hormonal pills, no condoms which most people I know can’t stand, and your working with nature to your advantage, you just have to stop making love for a couple of weeks in every month, this is also a advantage, as this tends to “make the heart grow fonder”

Also if you do want to fall in pregnant, you can pretty well get it down to the right day and week, this way the male does not have to, “perform every night” for 30 days in a hope that his loved one will fall in pregnant, which can become tiring both physically and emotionally for both individuals

As far as when rape happens, I think abortion should be a choice to the female, however I think in evolved civilizations rape would be minable, so would the pressure of a monetary system, I also think education would be far superior leading to women making far better choices about there body’s cycles and who they slept with.

In my fathers day if you got a women pregnant you got married, this was the reason my farther married my mother, I have seen and herd of this time and time again, is it a solution?, not sure, need to think this over.

[Alisima]

Alisima, take no offense, but while I make no personal claim for the astuteness of my comment, "But not astute enough" is an inappropriate comment taking into consideration that I had said "unless there's something else" -- I clearly expected that you may not be what you seem to be and asked for your clarification.

Indeed there is something else, there always is something else. Perhapse that is why I said "but not astute enough", it was, however, not as a personal remark. Sorry for the tension here. Try to see it as a joke and loose up. There is no energy in my words apart from what you put in while reading it.

Has this particular belief of yours been influenced by Zen philosophy, which you have referred to in previous posts?

Well, although it may not seem that way, zen and me are miles apart. The idea's I have were already mine before hearing anything of zen. Zen just happens to correspond here and there.

(Of course, if we continue straying off off-topic, the conversation is going to be split.)

Conversations are always split, that is because most conversations have no basis. Look in the world around you; watch people talk. After a minute or so, many have strayed from there original paths. Only one in a thousand actually knows what the conversation was about 30 min. ago. Most talk but can't remember what about, they even forget they have forgotten.

Now concerning the whole "going off topic" issue, I have said all I can say about abortion without there being an actual abortion or even the possibility of an abortion (that is to say, I see no pregnant woman.)

Some females I know have aborted there child because the guy that the slept with claims he is not ready to be a farther, this personally makes my blood boil, this sounds to me like a cope out on his behalf.

Other women I know have had abortions because of monetary reasons they simply can’t keep there life style and living expenses and have children.

Other women have aborted there children because they don’t want to have a child by the farther, and again this can be for a number of reasons.

Other couples I know have had aborted because they think it would never work out,

And then there a people who DON'T have an abortion regardless of the apparent trouble they will probably run into. If you know that it is going to fail, there being no responsibility and such, do you keep denying abortion?? And what about pregnancy in combination with Down Syndrome, do you deny abortion then?? Or, a more down to earth scenario, what about people who already have childeren, and have totally neglected them?? Into death?? Do you deny abortion then??

In other words, you can't have a rule governing abortion that say's "if you can cross that line and blablabla you can have abortion, else not." The problem with such a scenario are not the extreme cases, they are easy to pick out. The problem are the "middle" cases, those who have barely cross the line and those who have barely not (where the line in this example denotes the 'area', governed by rules, where you can and where you can't have an abortion.) What do you do then?? Do you stick with the numbers and conclude on that or do you 'make personal contact', i.e. be human?? (ofcourse you can say that anybody can abort all they want, essentially placing the decision of abortion at the people themselves, which is a good thing to do if everyone is an introvert. But not everyone is an introvert. Some people need counseling. The question is not whether abortion is universally accepted, by god and all. The question is what do you say when you need to counsel someone.)

Your oppinion during counseling weighs heavy. Probably due to the fact that the person who needs counseling is emotional disturb, they wouldn't need counseling otherwise, and see you as there savior/father/mother/god/guru (hmm, those d*mn archetypes...)

But counseling is a personal thing, i.e. it depends on the person being counseled, and ofcourse on the person who is counseling. So, no rules, free playground, outcome unknown.

It is what is called a “maybe baby”, it is a device that you put a little bit of suliver in and you can tell wither you are ovulating or not, this way you can figure out your cycle, and when is a good time to “make love”, the benefits, no hormonal pills, no condoms which most people I know can’t stand, and your working with nature to your advantage, you just have to stop making love for a couple of weeks in every month, this is also a advantage, as this tends to “make the heart grow fonder”

This maybe baby is a good thing, although I believe it is not very hard for a woman to know when see is ovulating or not. But this is always an easy thing to say for a guy. However, I believe it can be done, specially since woman are more intuitive and all.

As far as when rape happens, I think abortion should be a choice to the female, however I think in evolved civilizations rape would be minable, so would the pressure of a monetary system, I also think education would be far superior leading to women making far better choices about there body’s cycles and who they slept with.

This is no serious remark, but perhapse it would be better to place the subsentence "...I also think education would be far superior leading to women making far better choices about there body’s cycles and who they slept with" outside the sentence dealing with rape, of perhapse in a different paragraph altogether. But you are right though.

In my fathers day if you got a women pregnant you got married, this was the reason my farther married my mother, I have seen and herd of this time and time again, is it a solution?, not sure, need to think this over.

This is indeed how it went in the 'old days', although it is more an ironic karma thing (or is karma always ironic?) coming back on you. Besides, I don't think this is the way of getting people to marry. What about love?