Coming Back from the 7th Category

[dloheb]

Indeed, they didn't. Does anyone have video of his lectures? They used to be available on Chalko's site, but now he says that Michel recommends the book is read 4 times. My first assumption was that you are supposed to read it three times because our reading comprehension is about 70ish percent on average. Hmm, maybe a Thiaoouban comes out and pinches me in the arm after that FORTH read? I did read it three times by the way.

According to the book the astral body does not 'remember' everything it has learned in past lives. You may not have all of your skills with you.

Anyway, there is a cloud of mystery hanging over Michel's head, for me anyway. There are two options: TP is either an actual experience rendering it true, or a fabrication. Not much grey in the middle.

[survivor]

Hmm, maybe a Thiaoouban comes out and pinches me in the arm after that FORTH read? I did read it three times by the way.

Only one more read 'dloheb' and you will soon know! But it's more than a pinch, beware the uppercut ~ a real bruiser!

[Vesko]

TP is either an actual experience rendering it true, or a fabrication.

It is possible that Michel totally fabricated the alien abuction experience and plagiarised significant material from James Churchward's books about Mu and (to a lesser extent) from Lobsang Rampa (as mentioned elsewhere on the forum, Rampa writes about a higher self and the human spirit as 1/10 of it). Also, possibly from other writings about yogis and by yogis. I mean, material that I consider could be true with very high likelihood, but this is not to say that I think that all of Churchward and all of Rampa is true.

It is my opinion that even if the alien abduction experience did not happen, the possibly plagiarised material is of tremendous value and significance by itself, and because I am more and more confident that it (the material) can be completely true, I conclude that the potential of mankind is no less great than if the alien part really happened (were really true). Therefore, the alien part does not really matter, whatever the truth about it.

On the basis of the Naacal tablets and his interpretation of them, Churchward writes about antigravity, mind cultivation, universal laws (including moral and ethical), reincarnation, that material knowledge is erased after death but the spiritual one remains, and that the purpose of life is to develop enough mental qualities (like love, honesty, hope, etc.) to be admitted to Heaven when the living God dwells, and other of the very same things we find in TP. So, indeed, the alien setting brings nothing that isn't in Churchward or Rampa, or said or done by various yogis. But because the alien setting makes so much common sense, it captures greatly the imagination of the reader, and the combination between it and the rest of the possibly plagiarised information is an unique and outstandingly powerful one. For this reason, whoever says that TP is like a number of other books about spirituality, is wrong in my opinion. The only books I've read which compare to TP to some extent are books with direct, first-hand experiences and lessons by yogis, and those books are in some aspects more useful than TP because they contain more details about certain spiritual practices than does TP (but then TP's point is only to give the big picture). But as an overall potential for influencing the reader, TP is unrivalled by any other book. The effect is considerably increased by the fact that TP is written in a simple language, whereas most other books about yogis, as well as many other spiritual books, have a number of religious and esoteric terms in them that the ordinary reader has either difficulty to understand, or they are not worth understanding because they are just unnecessary luggage that occludes the meaning and practice of genuine spiritual teachings and practices.

Also, there are many things from TP that many of us either already know are true or are getting to know it at the moment. Facts about our current society / civilisation, whose truthfulness is beyond any doubt to me and I do not wonder if they are true. From practice, I've found the great value of meditation and other exercises associated with the mind, and the idea that true happiness can be found only in constantly cultivating one's mind -- I have no doubt about those and have explained various things about it on the forum. And what I do not know makes good common sense to me, so I believe them. I say there is nothing bad about belief if it carries you towards knowledge.

Deep down in myself, and as far as I am able to, I cannot find a single good scientific reason why the book, or the material in it that could possibly be taken from other books, is false. I've searched a lot since 1998 and continue to do so. But there isn't a single thing. That a problem with the book I haven't found may exist still disturbs me a lot, but I cannot find anything, on the contrary, I learn that more and more things in life are like this book and other books about spirituality say they are, and most importantly, I've found the ultimate proof about them in my own mind and heart. So, I have no reason to live like almost everyone else (I should have perhaps said "the vast majority" instead of "almost everyone", but in this day and age, I think the vast majority is too little when talking about the number of people living materialistically).

[dloheb]

TP is either an actual experience rendering it true, or a fabrication.

It is possible that Michel totally fabricated the alien abuction experience and plagiarised significant material from James Churchward's books about Mu and (to a lesser extent) from Lobsang Rampa (as mentioned elsewhere on the forum, Rampa writes about a higher self and the human spirit as 1/10 of it). Also, possibly from other writings about yogis and by yogis. I mean, material that I consider could be true with very high likelihood, but this is not to say that I think that all of Churchward and all of Rampa is true.

I haven't read much on either (is Rampa the one who hiked and found Yetis?), so I wouldn't have a feel for that (maybe I will read them). I would agree that while it would still require a very excitable imagination (which I don't think is a rare thing), he could have gotten a lot of info from other works and etc. as you have said.

It is my opinion that even if the alien abduction experience did not happen, the possibly plagiarised material is of tremendous value and significance by itself, and because I am more and more confident that it (the material) can be completely true, I conclude that the potential of mankind is no less great than if the alien part really happened (were really true). Therefore, the alien part does not really matter, whatever the truth about it.

If the book is ficticious, then it serves to confuse, and CONFUSING people is not a good way to bring them to spirituality. It will also serve to discredit all the book's merits (say the severity environmental concerns) to the people who are very fixated in their own reality. Then, what discredits it more, would be the people who cling to the work of fiction. I have near-concluded that spiritual information on the internet is almost 100% false, either directly or the mixture of truth and fiction takes the truth away (half truth may as well be false). So, with all this trash, the "unique-reality-oriented" person might see a few BS new age things and will dismiss everything else, assuming they were open to it to begin with. I am generalizing on the type of person of course, but I hope my point comes across. Note that a lot of new age stuff (all this kind of stuff will get clumped to that "idea") is so nonsensical that only the most loopy people could follow them. These people, so blatantly irrational and spacey etc., are unfortunatly like the poster children for spiritual things. So the logical, intelligent person, who is a little too certain of his truth, has to now go over this layer of pure craziness before he might begin to find gold... or atleast a level-headed discussion on information which makes a strong case...

And to me personally it matters a lot. I would feel as though I've been swindled and I would immediatly disregard ALL information in the book, for how can I trust anything from a work of deception? When already diluted information (presumably, as I haven't read the work) is strung together, it simply dilutes it further.

I do understand what you are saying and coming from, but I think the proposition that something CAN be true is too common. I also disagree with it still being as useful etc. if it is true or not. The difference is exactly as big as truth and darkness

On the basis of the Naacal tablets and his interpretation of them, Churchward writes about antigravity, mind cultivation, universal laws (including moral and ethical), reincarnation, that material knowledge is erased after death but the spiritual one remains, and that the purpose of life is to develop enough mental qualities (like love, honesty, hope, etc.) to be admitted to Heaven when the living God dwells, and other of the very same things we find in TP. So, indeed, the alien setting brings nothing that isn't in Churchward or Rampa, or said or done by various yogis. But because the alien setting makes so much common sense, it captures greatly the imagination of the reader, and the combination between it and the rest of the possibly plagiarised information is an unique and outstandingly powerful one. For this reason, whoever says that TP is like a number of other books about spirituality, is wrong in my opinion. The only books I've read which compare to TP to some extent are books with direct, first-hand experiences and lessons from yogis, and those books are in some aspects more useful than TP because they contain more details about certain spiritual practices than does TP (but then TP's point is only to give the big picture). But as an overall potential for influencing the reader, TP is unrivalled by any other book. The effect is considerably increased by the fact that TP is written in a simple language, whereas most other books about yogis, as well as many other spiritual books, have a number of religious and esoteric terms in them that the ordinary reader has either difficulty to understand, or they are not worth understanding because they are just unnecessary luggage that occludes the meaning and practice of genuine spiritual teachings and practices.

Also, there are many things from TP that many of us either already know are true or are getting to know it at the moment. Facts about our current society / civilisation, whose truthfulness is beyond any doubt to me and I do not wonder if they are true. From practice, I've found the great value of meditation and other exercises associated with the mind, and the idea that true happiness can be found only in constantly cultivating one's mind -- I have no doubt about those and have explained various things about it on the forum. And what I do not know makes good common sense to me, so I believe them. I say there is nothing bad about belief if it carries you towards knowledge.

Deep down in myself, and as far as I am able to, I cannot find a single good scientific reason why the book, or the material in it that could possibly be taken from other books, is false. I've searched a lot since 1998 and continue to do so. But there isn't a single thing. That a problem with the book I haven't found may exist still disturbs me a lot, but I cannot find anything, on the contrary, I learn that more and more things in life are like this book and other books about spirituality say they are, and most importantly, I've found the ultimate proof about them in my own mind and heart. So, I have no reason to live like almost everyone else (I should have perhaps said "the vast majority" instead of "almost everyone", but in this day and age, I think the vast majority is too little when talking about the number of people living materialistically).

Hmm but you don't know if you've attained any real knowledge yet. Indeed you only can know if you KNOW - believing is not enough :p

I am with you that the book may very well be real. I find my thoughts "uplifted" when I read it, away from material concerns or wants. It was after reading it for a couple to a few hours, when I laid down in bed to sleep, that I had the sensation of a quarter-sized pimple forming between my eyebrows and when I focused ona spiritual thought (love) I felt my head and visual screen 'ballooning'. Now I'm not sure exactly what that all meant, and I stopped the 'ballooning' from going on further because I was afraid, but I feel as though I could have really achieved a deep state meditation at that time if I wanted to...

I sortof went off on a small tangent as that isn't a testament to the book's truth, but on the topic of belief being beneficial etc. etc. (I wouldn't have had read it had not it been for the possiblity)… also all trails (including false information) can be “there to be overcome” so to speak. What I said before is accurate too. . . but I think if someone is ready to know they will be able to sort through such things anyway. It’s a little more tricky of a topic than it appears on the surface in a sense.

I think Chalko would have to be “in on it” if it is false. I make this assertion for the reasons of their close friendship, but also because Chalko claims he sees auras and that he has seen Michel’s during interviews. He would know if he was lying.

And I like Chalko for the most part (from what I can observe), and will be soon experimenting with one of his shirts. He is obviously very intelligent and good at what he does, which isn’t designing websites. One thing that bothers me a little is that the articles that are linked to at the end of the sentence, “have you read THIS article?” are his own, and with equally cheesy backgrounds!

The line between truth and fiction is very thin and I think it is easily crossed, so I remain open minded and skeptical on this one. I’m not as “upset” about TP as I might sound, as I’m talking about deception in general…

[dloheb]

Hmm, maybe a Thiaoouban comes out and pinches me in the arm after that FORTH read? I did read it three times by the way.

Only one more read 'dloheb' and you will soon know! But it's more than a pinch, beware the uppercut ~ a real bruiser!

[Vesko]

I do not want to say that the book would be useful as a book to lead people to spirituality if it is already known that the abduction part of it is false. If the latter turns out to be indeed false, I too would feel swindled and disappointed, and the book would not be fit at all for public consumption any more, because indeed it will serve to confuse people.

But only on the basis of that, I would never disregard ALL or even most information in the book. I think you say so only because you haven't read much of Churchward. There are very many significant things that are in Churchward's books that are in "Thiaoouba Prophecy", and to disregard the same info in the latter because the alien part is false would not be wise. In both books we have Mu, Mu's Atlantis colonisation; Greece as a colony of Atlantis; Thoth from Atlantis; the evil Egyptian priesthood that distorted the teachings of Thoth and led people under their control to fear various nonsense; Red Sea vs. Reed Sea; the inland Amazon sea; that Moses was not a Jew; the Nagas and the fact that they have had the most advanced schools ever existing on Earth; the making up of United Egypt from the two groups -- Nagas and Maya-Atlanteans; that the Bible is distorted; that Jesus has been the greatest spiritual master to have ever lived on Earth; that the theory of evolution is false and all beings are created with no possibility for species change; the erasure of material memories but the remaining of spiritual knowledge upon reincarnation; the cold magnetic force (which is actually a term coined by Churchward himself) and its neutralisation (antigravity); the possibility for human levitation and for all kinds of "paranormal" phenomena because man has been created after the fashion of his own Creator and possesses potential control over the rest of Creation -- over all elements and forces of Nature; that mountains were only a recent development on the face of the Earth; that gas belts exist spanning the Earth; that the gas belts and gas chambers are responsible for tremendous cataclysms that can raise and sink entire continents in a very short time (there are clues about the belt/chamber-continent sinking connection in TP); and a number of other things.

Regarding the New Age movement, I completely agree with you. I agree with you also that the proposition that something can be true is too common, but I am not saying that one should take things to be true at face value. I say that even after researching things a lot, there isn't a single problem in the book I have found, a problem that I am confident about that it is an problem. You also say that I don't know if I've attained any real knowledge, I'd like to ask you what is real knowledge according to you and how can we determine that we have attained it?

Regarding the pimple in the brow chakra, I've had a slight tension, itch and pulsation develop in the brow area where the chakra is supposed to exist, on similar occasions, as well as much stronger pulsation occurring in the areas of my brow, throat and heart chakras during OBE attempts.

Similar to yours, I have an opinion that some parts of Tom's site may be presented better and would confuse the visitor much less. You, I and a few other people I know of who have the same opinion need to assemble a list of what we see to be problematic, and submit it to Tom for his review.

[dloheb]

I do not want to say that the book would be useful as a book to lead people to spirituality if it is already known that the abduction part of it is false. If the latter turns out to be indeed false, I too would feel swindled and disappointed, and the book would not be fit at all for public consumption any more, because indeed it will serve to confuse people.

But only on the basis of that, I would never disregard ALL or even most information in the book. I think you say so only because you haven't read much of Churchward.

Okay, I started writing a lot, found some causes for misunderstanding, confused myself, and in going off track often my original reply became more than tedious to sift through, so it isn't worth posting here. Now exhausted, I will try to respond while the general essense is in my head.

In your last post you mentioned the point of how TP explained (very well) the actions of modern man, and even more impressive, went into detail about the key dangers.

In my last post I was not even thinking about these "small" (for lack of a better word, for they are very important in themselves.. hardly small) truths, but more the harder facts it presents. For if the book is correct I do not need to do any more searching for truth (in a lot of ways), and as we are unsure about it, we are not sure if we have attained any real knowledge yet (knowledge comment). I was not talking about the "smaller" truths as ofcourse they can be attained and are the keys which bring us further (note that it is an analogy and these "small" truths I speak of come in different sizes ). I read somewhere that what is right is engraved on every mans heart... in a universe of PURPOSE, truths are made available to us. Tools such as common sense and logic... again, I was not trying to be condescending. I was focusing on the hard claims the book makes which is how I caused some of the confusion.

However, if the book is a fabrication:

(this is from my 'first draft' of this post I mentioned before)

Imagination takes over any true knowledge and turns it into useless ***. This is why fiction has never interested me. Without considering where and how Churchward compiled his works, we would know that the related information contained in TP would be diluted from the source, and thus be rendered useless. Maybe you thought that I would remember everything in TP and rally against any future knowledge that crossed into the TP work, but that is not the case. It would not discredit Churchward, and it has nothing to do with Churchward.

As you can see, at this point I have ignored the "smaller" truths, but I continue to try and explain why I am saying that:

Maybe you go about things differently than me (ie. you look to what you find true and TP in keep it), but it is simpler for me to can it entirely and start anew. (the "smaller" truths would be ingrained in me and the source not relevant) (this is also because I haven't read Churchward's stuff yet)


I think there was misunderstanding regarding this issue.

Further (now speaking on churchward), I am not sure it would be possible to verify what Churchward said (less so than TP) and I may not take it too seriously, taking perhaps some ideals with me. (ironically I am talking about the same kind of ideals I neglected to notice before) One piece I have taken from the first chapter of "Sacred Symbols of Mu" is:

"The intention of religion, wherever we find it, is always holy. However imperfect a religion may be, it always places the human soul in the presence of God, and however imperfect and however childish the conception of God may be, it always expresses the highest ideal of perfection which the human soul, for the time being, can reach and grasp."

This is interesting because it speaks of the importance of intention. It also speaks against judgement. Of course, we have to use common sense and note that it is the intention of religion, not the intention of gaining power or taking money by using religion as a guise. In any case, I was aware it is not my place to convert religious people or to judge them, but this really reminded me that some religious people have the highest intent. And even if the quote is not ultimately correct, what I have taken from it is useful to me.

And while I'd like to know the mystery of Atlantis and Mu, and like things, it is not the important thing, and perhaps unattainable anyway. I will know more on this particular after I have familiarized myself with Churchward's books.

I'll comment on the rest / complete this response later on (when I am more awake), but I wanted to comment on that first. Also I hope it clears the knowledge comment I made in my last post, to reiterate:

It was probably poorly worded, but basically to the tune of "we are on a journey and do not have the answers". I know you took it to mean things and in ways I didn't intend, so I hope that explains it

I think we are on similar pages all in all.

[dloheb]

Regarding the pimple in the brow chakra, I've had a slight tension, itch and pulsation develop in the brow area where the chakra is supposed to exist, on similar occasions, as well as much stronger pulsation occurring in the areas of my brow, throat and heart chakras during OBE attempts.

Similar to yours, I have an opinion that some parts of Tom's site may be presented better and would confuse the visitor much less. You, I and a few other people I know of who have the same opinion need to assemble a list of what we see to be problematic, and submit it to Tom for his review.

I said I was going to finish everything I was going to say but I don't remember off-hand and I feel lazy. In any case I think we are on a similar page on this and a lot of the confliction (which isn't much to start with) is because we draw the same conclusions in a different way, for example.

Have you successfully travelled out of body? Is the brow chakra the same as the third eye, or is the brow chakra a smaller one that's below it, or some such thing?

Regarding Tom's web site, I suppose we can work on a list and present it to him, I'll talk to you in PM about it... if anyone else would like to add to it they should mention so...

[Vesko]

I agree with are on a similar page. I think I will comment more in the future.

Out-of-body: two or three times, perhaps a little more than that, and none in the last year for what I know (it has been a very stressful year for me). But the experiences were short, so I cannot say "travel", more "moving closely around"; once, in the inside of a colored, textured tunnel and a yellow light glowing at the turn of the tunnel. I've shared one or two experiences here on the forum.

Once, while I didn't go anywhere, I was lying in bed late at night, very relaxed but substantially awake, and concentrated on the thought of going upwards. The areas where the brow, throat and heart chakras are described to be started tensing and pulsating, as if there was something alive under those areas of the skin, and then I heard loud electric ringing, which was increasing the more I was concentrating on the thought. I stopped the thought this stopped what I was feeling, and the noise stopped as well. To be sure that I've really experienced something unusual, I started thinking the same again -- and then the rest happened again. I think also that even though the ringing was loud, for some reason my ears didn't hurt from the sound.

It may seem suprising to someone who is following the forum, but I haven't made any serious and determined attempts to go out of body. I am focussing on understanding and getting skilled in meditation and other related things. As one of the results of that, I think I will be able to handle OBE better through them, because they are helping me to purify and be more in control of my thoughts.

I don't know about the brow chakra vs. the third eye.

Thank you for taking up the idea about talking to Tom about his site. Let's talk about it over PM.