Immune failure

[peace yall]

Hey guys. I think i have a theory why our immune systems might be failing
Can you tell me if my theory is feasible and credible?

Is it possible our usage of antibiotics doesn't let our immune systems
build enough immunity towards micro-organisms and because of that we get allergies.

[ptex]

Yeah, I tend to agree, they contribute to making our immune system lazy (by proving a quick fix) and not using our body's own healing resources. Still, given the great number of diseases and our generalized lack of understanding of how our immune system really works, some medicines are highly effective in the treatment of the specific problem they address. Nevertheless it's unknown the true extent of the side effects they provoke

So as everything else in life the use of allopatic (conventional) medicines should be carefully considered against the risks and alternatives available. I'm in no way a fundamentalist against the use of conventional medicines, I only defend that their use should be minimized as much as possible but only to a certain extent

[Phun20]

Also it might be good to note that most everyone has a dissinfectant spray that kills 99.9% of all germs, that can also prevent our immune systems from developing correctly, leading to our Immune system to fail...

[Zark]

I am one of those people who have a failing immune system.. I have an immune disorder, and when the immune disorder is out of control I am prone to ulcers and other kinds of infections. Also I will become VERY tired and quite irritable.. not to mention the agony of approx. half my joints being inflamed. I am more susceptible to infection despite the number of immune cells in my blood skyrocketing! Why? Because the immune system is out of whack and isn't responding effectively. [I compare it to a car in neutral with the engine revving hard.. the engine is running like crazy but getting nowhere]

.. what is the immune system any way? ..
The immune system is a complex beast. It is made up of more than just T cells. I will argue that it is more than just 'immune cells' [though certainly some will disagree]. Any part of your body that provides a barrier to infection effectively provides immunity. If one accepts that premise then you have to include your skin, gut wall, stomach acidity, and even the flora in your gut as important barriers to infection and thus related to immunity.. perhaps even a *part* of the immune system.

I will relate my experience with antibiotics.. as it should be useful..

.. antibiotics, cure or curse? ..
Is weakness of our immune systems caused by antibiotics? Yes and no. I was given antibiotics for a chest infection whilst in Malaysia. I had typhoid [one would think I caught it in Malaysia.. but that isn't the case.. it's a strange story in itself]. Within hours of taking the antibiotics all the inflammation had cleared and with it the pain had gone [edit: what I mean is.. my immune disorder was temporarily in remission after taking antibiotics!]. Since my body had stopped wasting precious immune resources on attacking itself, it now could do more useful work of defending against real infections. So, whilst the antibiotics were in my system my immune cells would be more effective.. so it could be described as a stronger immune system. But it is only temporary, and it is like a crutch.

In the long run I wouldn't claim antibiotics made your immune system stronger, except in as far as continual infection with Typhoid would actually weaken the immune system by 1) over working it till it became too tired and weak, 2) distracting it from other important tasks, 3) infection with Typhoid weakens the entire body and thus drags your immune system down with it. I would argue that getting a dose of highly infectious Typhoid is only going to make your immune system weaker.

If you do manage to clear the infection then you might be stronger in two ways 1) immune system now knows how to deal with that specific invader, 2) the immune system has had a chance to flex it's muscles. However these 2 [are] true even if you take antibiotics [although, perhaps to a lesser degree].. and what if you never fully clear the infection? Is your immune system stronger or weaker due to being over burdened. I put this up for the sake of argument - that many infections we have had in the past are not fully eradicated and tend to linger in the body at a low level hardly provoking even a symptom. Like thieves that operate in the night, they evade the immune police of your body [.. but that is a pretty rough analogy].

.. after the antibiotics ..
After the antibiotics course had finished, all returned to normal. Well, normal for me. Inflammation returned within a day or two of stopping the antibiotics. The antibiotics didn't fully kill off the chest infection either. This isn't really surprising though, I wouldn't expect antibiotics to 100% wipe out an infection, rather it is more realistic that they would weaken the infectious organism to the point that the immune system can kill it off. Typhoid is well adapted to living in humans and is difficult for our immune systems to eradicate.

.. gut flora ..
After taking antibiotics the gut flora can become compromised. You could think of it like clear felling a rain forest, because there really is an ecosystem going on in your gut. When the ecosystem is disrupted then weed organisms move in. So after a course of antibiotics.. infectious organism may take hold such as yeasts [eg. candida] or unfriendly bacteria. I can't honestly say that this happened to me, but it does happen. It happens often enough, and this is why many doctors recommend consuming yoghurt during and after an antibiotics course.
The gut flora in your gut keeps your immune system quite busy.. and I reckon that is the case regardless of whether the microbes are 'friendly' or 'unfriendly'. Both keep the immune system working hard.

I have to go now as I have lots to do.. busy busy busy. But I will add this : healthy gut flora is extremely important in immune system health. The gut is by far the most filthy part of your body and your immune system spends a great deal of its time just trying to keep the gut flora in good order.

There are a couple of things that I still want to raise here: 'the clean hypothesis' [or whatever it is.. I can't remember right now], "molecular mimicry" and "reactive arthritis" and how it relates to my immune disorder [ankylosing spondylitis], "weed seed and feed", and my experiences with fasting. I am really listing these so that I don't forget!

[Zark]

Oh yeah, I have to explain how I bring my immune disorder into remission... but not now bcos it will take too long to explain properly. Got to go!

z

[Robanan]

I stand in awe Zark, I didn't know a single thing of all that you wrote in your post, thank you for sharing, but I made an experiment once, I had a relatively deep cut on my finger so I decided to try to concentrate on it and create feelings of gratitude and love toward every cell involved into curing the wound, I think it worked very well and the cut closed up and cured a lot faster than I knew it normally would. Stay strong my friend, keep in touch.

[Zark]

I just wrote all this stuff in reply, and my browser just wiped the whole lot. Undo doesn't work either. I am so *** peeved...

Must..Meditate..on radiant.. loving.. kindness. Argh! I don't want to use this Safari browser ever again!

Hmph!

[Zark]

Now that I wasted all that energy ranting I can't remember what I wrote!

>> so I decided to try to concentrate on it and create feelings
>> of gratitude and love toward every cell involved into curing
>> the wound, I think it worked very well and the cut closed up
>> and cured a lot faster

Yeah, I find that entirely believable. I have experienced something similar before..

I went to a Buddhist retreat some years back.. and whilst there my immune disorder cleared up very noticeably after just being there about half a day. I felt really good. So good in fact that I have long wanted to return, and yet somehow I never did return.. why? do I want to suffer? Get it together man!

I guess that experience implies that stress,anxiety, worries and other emotional stuff play a significant role in my immune disorder. We did do this session of 'Metta Meditation' and I have always believed that was the key thing that brought so much relief. The word 'metta' is used by Buddhists and it means 'loving kindness'.. The word is helpful as it bypasses some of the confusion we have about the word 'love' in english. Was it the Metta or being stress free that helped? I think they go hand in hand..

[Zark]

Over on the KickAS.org forum [for ppl with the immune disorder 'ankylosing spondylitis'] a friend posted the following regarding her immune disorder and the possible influence of chlorine. I can't say that I am convinced, but definitely it is food for thought:

While reading "Wild Fermentation" yesterday, I learned the reason to use chlorine free water while making the sauerkraut, was because chlorine kills microorganisms. Duh.

But then I started thinking, when did my municipality start adding chlorine to the drinking water, so I looked it up online and it was in 2004. So 4 years ago, the same year I starting developing AS symptoms. Is this just a coincidence, or could there be a link?

With all the trouble I have been having balancing bacteria in my system, this is really making me wonder. I never had any trouble before 2004.
[posted by Jeann on kickas.org]

[Zark]

I posted the following on kickas.org today regarding fasting and diet restriction and how the help with the immune disorder:

When I started the diet I found it extremely confusing trying to figure out exactly what I am reacting to. It is hard at first and it took me years to master this diet. I have persisted because I know it works. I know it works because I fasted on just fruits [plus water] and experienced the amazing results - no inflammation after 2 or 3 days of fasting. No need for drugs. Then I started eating normally again and the pain came back in a matter of hours!.

[..diet stuff snipped..]

== fasting ==
Despite your low weight I would still recommend that you fast for about 3 days and just eat apples, pears, and grapes, and drink water. I find I regain any lost weight very qiuickly after a fast anyway. Perhaps because the digestive system works more efficiently after a good rest. After 3 days I find that all the inflammation / iritis has cleared and hence no longer have any use for drugs.

No matter how out of season these 3 fruits get [apples, pears, and grapes] I simply don't react to them, so that is why I recommend them. Once you are at that point when you are in no pain, then try to introduce foods one by one. Write down your observations. Introduce the safest foods first [eg. meat, eggs, leafy greens, almonds, hazelnuts, tomato, and maybe some yoghurt]. Very hard to take it slow when ending a fast bcos u r so *** hungry! But first things first - you need to work out a basic list of foods that you KNOW you can eat without getting into trouble.

[Jozen-Bo]

This makes sense. My wife works in the medical field and says that using antibiotics too often does weaken the immune system.

[Zark]

>> My wife works in the medical field and says that using antibiotics too often does weaken the immune system

Could you ask what mechanism this could possibly weaken the immune system by?

The relevant problems I can think of are:

1. Creation of virulent superbugs that are immune to our antibiotics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antibiotic_resistance

2. Hygiene Hypothesis
Lack of exposure to bugs. Reduction in gut flora variety.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hygiene_hypothesis

[Zark]

There are many other possible contenders to consider.. antibiotics are not the only possible cause of the increasing immunological issues that western countries are facing.

Consider..

* Pesticides

* Radioactive material.
Particularly any radioactive Iodine from bomb testing. This accumulates in our bone marrow which is where immune cells are formed [as well as red blood cells]

* Preservatives

* Chemicals
We use exposed to a huge range of chemicals in our every day life..

* Noise Pollution

* EM Pollution
EM noise is everywhere now. All that electronic gadgetry everywhere producing electromagnetic signals in all manner of frequency ranges. If *we* are an electronic instrument then we should have cause for concern.

* Stress + Depression
People working in so called 'developed' countries experience a lot of emotional stress. I can't pretend to know why.. But I do know that our emotions effect the health of our immune systems. Stress can produce adrenaline and cortisol [and I am sure a bunch of other detrimental hormones/chemicals], and we all know that adrenaline is toxic when in excess.

[Rezo]

how about terminator and gm crops? recently theres a bbc article, forget where - saying how gm foods might be 'good' for you [yeah right, like vaccines are?] theres gm crops that 'grow' plastic! supposedly more environmentally safe than synthetic, as if gm crops arent that...grr. Just saw a documentary called 'in lies we trust' another youtube video w/ben fulford and freeman perspective about haarp but thats a bit off topic...also I recently saw a neat piece from ted.com called '6 ways mushrooms can save the world' check it out its neat!! another one about bacteria that can 'eat' plastic bags [but how safe is it?]. seems promising anyway the way theyre presented.

i just would hate to see energy issues turned into human rights violations [taxing carbon equalling severe regulations on motorists/homeowners, but not for corporate entities that pollute more, d/t conflicts of interest] --> like corn ethanol for fuel and gm crops supposedly being good for consumption - Ive heard online that actually, if you look around and read enough you find out its artificial scarcity so gm crop companies make money and 'patent' nature. Truly sick....makes me wonder how people in power-positions can get incredibly disconnected from nature ...

Anyway what about good news? Good 'ol sunlight is great for health, watch out for octyl methoxycinnamate [toxin in sunscreen] and deet [in bugspray] for those living in n. hemisphere now [summer approaches ]. Psycho-neuro-immunology field is interesting to me as well - maybe theres a 'smoking gun' there [sorry for the cliche all I could think of!]. Theres a book on it but I forget the title, its supposed to offer solutions or advice or something. Relates it in a kind of roundabout way to acupuncture. I try to buy local food but its not always as 'alive' - read more positive info regarding raw food as well recently. I eat it when I can, thinking about buying a 'kit' to eat it more often. Cheaper too.

[Zark]

== antibiotics + farm animals ==
The chickens we eat these days are fed a constant diet of antibiotics.. it is in their feed and causes them to grow much faster, thus increasing productivity and profits for the farmer. Hardly a natural way to farm. Same is true I would think for other animals such as pigs, cattle, etc. A little of the antibiotics + hormones that they are fed will end up in their body fat, but it would not be much when compared to what they consume.

So then, if antibiotics caused immune failure.. shouldn't chickens lose their immune systems first? They are getting much more of it then we are, and the number of animals being given this would be in the millions. Consider how many chickens you eat in a year, then multiply it by the population of your country.. this is a HUGE number of animals we are talking about.