Hello,
Firstly, this is a great forum. I am new here and please let me know if I post at the wrong section of the forum.
According to Thiaoouba Prophecy, Buddha knew, Buddha did not just believe but he knew. Ok, based on this statement according to Thiaoouba Prophecy, what Buddha taught or said should be tally with TP. Correct me if I am wrong.
There are some doubts inside me about the statement. I may have a shallow understanding about Buddhism, thus please correct me if I am wrong.
1) Buddha gained enlightenment and achieved Nirvana. Where did he go after achieving Nirvana? Did he join the Great Spirit? Going to the Great Ether? If I am not wrong, according to Thiaoouba Prophecy, Buddha was an Earthling. He was from category one. Could he skip all the categories and join the Great Spirit?
2) When asked about the origin of the universe, Buddha said that there wasn't any first cause or a creator. Correct me if I am wrong. Let's see the below:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_in_Buddhism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahm%C4%81_(Buddhism)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_cosmology
One of the link is about Brahma, whom thought that he is the creator of the universe, but Buddha corrected him according to the above source.
There are also many articles about Buddha disagreeing about a creator of the universe. Google it and able to find it.
3) Reincarnation or rebirth to few realms. According to Buddhism, there are six realms of rebirth. Please see the below link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_realms
This means that human can actually rebirth to animal realm but according to Thiaoouba Prophecy if I am not wrong, human will rebirth as a human only which is a bit contradicting.
4) According to Buddhism, mind (or by some people called) soul is not actually born or created in such a short time. Say, 10000 years ago or even merely 81 lives and so on. It has been more than that. There measure in Eon which is very long somewhere in billions of years. Please look at the temporal cosmology in the below link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_cosmology
5) The four noble truth of Buddhism and TP have slightly differences in view. It states more towards the understanding of suffering and how to eliminate it. Even though it has some similarity but yet it has differences. Please refer to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Noble_Truths
6) Some of the Buddhist practice said that if a person do certain good action or karma, he or she maybe able to reborn in that particular paradise. Is it rebirth in Thiaoouba planet or certain planets in category one? Please refer to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pure_Land
Of course, there are many similarities but yet there are many differences too. I am not trying to find doubts here, please don't misunderstand. I hope that we can discuss and learn more from there.
Please give some comments or discussions about the above. Thank you.
TP and the teaching of Buddha
Moderator: Moderators
Re: TP and the teaching of Buddha
Welcome.
In kindness I'd like to point out that you refer a lot "According to's".
From my experience, contradicting information will always appear and serve as stepping stones while working forward to clarify things for yourself internally. Enjoy tackling these.
p. 144
In kindness I'd like to point out that you refer a lot "According to's".
From my experience, contradicting information will always appear and serve as stepping stones while working forward to clarify things for yourself internally. Enjoy tackling these.
p. 144
acquired his understanding through his own study
Re: TP and the teaching of Buddha
Ronald, thank you so much for your reply.
Yes, I admit that I refer to many 'according to' but it is really 'according to'. Most of the knowledge are from different sources.
Before I posted the questions, I did try to think internally myself for some time but I couldn't find the answer. The contradictory information of both sources lead me to have few personal conclusions:
1) Both views are different.
2) Both views maybe the same but people interpretations are different.
3) My understanding on both views are wrong or different.
Thus, these few different conclusions lead me to no answer.
Yes, according to Thiaoouba Prophecy, Buddha acquired the knowledge by his own study. However, Thiaoouba Prophecy didn't say that Buddha's knowledge was incorrect. It even mentioned that Buddha knew, meaning that Buddha knew the truth. Unfortunately, somehow, the views of both sources are slightly different.
In a way, it is good to have some discussion about that. Maybe, both sources are the same, just that the interpretations are different.
Thiaoouba Prophecy did not tell much about Buddha or Buddhism. Just one or two pages that mentioned Buddha knew. However, the statement 'Buddha knew' is already important as it implies Buddha knew the truth.
Yes, I admit that I refer to many 'according to' but it is really 'according to'. Most of the knowledge are from different sources.
Before I posted the questions, I did try to think internally myself for some time but I couldn't find the answer. The contradictory information of both sources lead me to have few personal conclusions:
1) Both views are different.
2) Both views maybe the same but people interpretations are different.
3) My understanding on both views are wrong or different.
Thus, these few different conclusions lead me to no answer.
Yes, according to Thiaoouba Prophecy, Buddha acquired the knowledge by his own study. However, Thiaoouba Prophecy didn't say that Buddha's knowledge was incorrect. It even mentioned that Buddha knew, meaning that Buddha knew the truth. Unfortunately, somehow, the views of both sources are slightly different.
In a way, it is good to have some discussion about that. Maybe, both sources are the same, just that the interpretations are different.
Thiaoouba Prophecy did not tell much about Buddha or Buddhism. Just one or two pages that mentioned Buddha knew. However, the statement 'Buddha knew' is already important as it implies Buddha knew the truth.
Re: TP and the teaching of Buddha
It might be good that interpretations are different, in perspective. I can imagine a reason why could be that the audience and stage of events have somewhat changed, maybe requiring other kind of simulations to grow our understanding on top of what we have historically.
The concept behind the 4 noble truths is in my view logical and lines up well. I do not see a difference besides it being explained with other words.
The idea of realms could well be used for explanation of various states of internal psyche that can be experienced. It appeared to me at first impression that there had been a mix up between physical and mental existences within the explanations, this confused. It also looks that with our recent vocabulary we have just given these things other names.
The "rebirth into animals" theme is a-logical if the purpose of existence is understood therefor I find it not contradicting.
For any kind of "..ism" it is far more reasonable to be assumed in producing such an explanation.
..just my take on it.
The concept behind the 4 noble truths is in my view logical and lines up well. I do not see a difference besides it being explained with other words.
The idea of realms could well be used for explanation of various states of internal psyche that can be experienced. It appeared to me at first impression that there had been a mix up between physical and mental existences within the explanations, this confused. It also looks that with our recent vocabulary we have just given these things other names.
The "rebirth into animals" theme is a-logical if the purpose of existence is understood therefor I find it not contradicting.
For any kind of "..ism" it is far more reasonable to be assumed in producing such an explanation.
..just my take on it.
Re: TP and the teaching of Buddha
Ronald, your explainations are pretty good. Sometimes, it maybe good to have differences so that we can used our intellect to think. Yes, I do agree with you regarding the four noble truth which don't have great differences.
As for rebirth to animal, I think it is mentioned somewhere in the Thiaoouba Prophecy that human will always rebirth as human if I am not wrong.
Sometimes, these differences actually give us doubts. From my perspective about Thiaoouba Prophecy, it seems that it is logical in many ways although as of now, I don't have the capability to verify it. It is imperative to note that we can actually ignore those differences as the practise after is different.
For example, there will be differences when someone believe in a Creator and someone doesn't. It seems important. The essence is different.
That is why we should note on whether it is different or it is the same. Just the matter of interpretations that made it different or it is really different.
If it is different, we can further breakdown into 3 possibility.
a) The first source is correct.
b) The second source is correct.
b) Neither of them are correct.
Therefore, it is still important to discuss whether both sources deliver the same messages.
As for rebirth to animal, I think it is mentioned somewhere in the Thiaoouba Prophecy that human will always rebirth as human if I am not wrong.
Sometimes, these differences actually give us doubts. From my perspective about Thiaoouba Prophecy, it seems that it is logical in many ways although as of now, I don't have the capability to verify it. It is imperative to note that we can actually ignore those differences as the practise after is different.
For example, there will be differences when someone believe in a Creator and someone doesn't. It seems important. The essence is different.
That is why we should note on whether it is different or it is the same. Just the matter of interpretations that made it different or it is really different.
If it is different, we can further breakdown into 3 possibility.
a) The first source is correct.
b) The second source is correct.
b) Neither of them are correct.
Therefore, it is still important to discuss whether both sources deliver the same messages.
Re: TP and the teaching of Buddha
I guess one could assume it that way, but only if one would automatically think that when someone says "I know" that they actually really know everything. That is the risk you have to take when you decide to follow someone..
In my own understanding in that part of the book it was only stated that Buddha did have a certain level of knowledge, and that he got it by his own experience. Thus in an essence it was only an example of one true way to knowledge - learning by yourself, not from others - and isn't that basically the whole message of the book?
So I don't see contradiction, only misunderstanding what was written. I do think it's a valid question though, and with it comes a good lesson.
In my own understanding in that part of the book it was only stated that Buddha did have a certain level of knowledge, and that he got it by his own experience. Thus in an essence it was only an example of one true way to knowledge - learning by yourself, not from others - and isn't that basically the whole message of the book?
So I don't see contradiction, only misunderstanding what was written. I do think it's a valid question though, and with it comes a good lesson.
Re: TP and the teaching of Buddha
Yes - well, in a sense, terminology can be a form of suffering....I try to take it step by step so as not to overwhelm myself... I have wondered why Buddha was mentioned so little, though, but I don't know.
Buddha was referred to in Thiaoouba Prophecy, as "an Earthling" ... however what of his previous life, could he have originated from a higher world, has this idea been discussed in Buddhism ?
'big bang' was in quotes in 'thiaoouba prophecy' book, I took that to mean, Thao used words that science on earth today predominantly is comfortable with, to try and help explain the idea about fractality of the universe [or electric/plasma-multiverse, if you prefer] and how it self-corrects [is intelligently encoded].
theres other things but can't recall for now. Lot of information ...
Buddha was referred to in Thiaoouba Prophecy, as "an Earthling" ... however what of his previous life, could he have originated from a higher world, has this idea been discussed in Buddhism ?
'big bang' was in quotes in 'thiaoouba prophecy' book, I took that to mean, Thao used words that science on earth today predominantly is comfortable with, to try and help explain the idea about fractality of the universe [or electric/plasma-multiverse, if you prefer] and how it self-corrects [is intelligently encoded].
theres other things but can't recall for now. Lot of information ...
Re: TP and the teaching of Buddha
Buddha was referred to in Thiaoouba Prophecy, as "an Earthling" ... however what of his previous life, could he have originated from a higher world, has this idea been discussed in Buddhism ?
I agree with you that Buddha may have originated from a higher category. Me too, not very sure whether this idea has been discussed in Buddhism. In Buddhism, there are many categories or realm too. Some of it are similar to Thiaoouba Prophecy but the total categories are different. Please refer to:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_cosmology
In my own understanding in that part of the book it was only stated that Buddha did have a certain level of knowledge, and that he got it by his own experience. Thus in an essence it was only an example of one true way to knowledge - learning by yourself, not from others - and isn't that basically the whole message of the book?
The method of learning by yourself is actually logical but it is very tough. For example, can a children learn how to talk, do maths, science all by himself?
It is possible but it is very tough.
By yourself, perhaps, doing own research for certain given data, meditation and etc.
Re: TP and the teaching of Buddha
I found splitting up my chosen verification processes to be of help. Confirming the existence of self beyond the scope of one physical body continues to be an interesting starting point and stills paves the way for other verifications to unfold naturally around them. It gradually assists, so it seems, in delivering confirmations without having forceful thoughts as "I want to know, now!!!". This was the method I discovered which works well for me.
This also concluded to accept any verification to be limited to my current understanding. A tiny degree of truth in any source of information thus seems to grow after working on it by oneself.
But that lands us eventually into the topic of universal law. To return to the topic, the 4 noble truths can be confirmed easily and I think is another starting point that can be of great help.
This also concluded to accept any verification to be limited to my current understanding. A tiny degree of truth in any source of information thus seems to grow after working on it by oneself.
But that lands us eventually into the topic of universal law. To return to the topic, the 4 noble truths can be confirmed easily and I think is another starting point that can be of great help.
Re: TP and the teaching of Buddha
Yes I agree, and my point was perhaps not well phrased enough, sorry for that. Of course we have to consider there is certain base line of knowledge and to throw that all away and start from scratch is not very useful either. The correct way to say could be that don't worship any knowledge too much, but make the best of what is already known and if possible try to develop from there your own understanding and with it you may have something valuable..The method of learning by yourself is actually logical but it is very tough. For example, can a children learn how to talk, do maths, science all by himself?
It is possible but it is very tough.
By yourself, perhaps, doing own research for certain given data, meditation and etc.
Anyway, I admit I've always found the Buddhist teachings interesting and felt it must have at least a certain part of the truth, just not necessarily the whole truth in a ready to digest form. So I would treat it as such, and same goes for any of our religion.. There perhaps once was higher knowledge (that of Mu for example) but we have to also remember when information is passed on, the message may get distorted.. at least that's my point of view on this matter for the time being..
Re: TP and the teaching of Buddha
Ronald wrote:
BlueHaze wrote:
Ronald, your choice of verification is very logical. I think we need time to confirm many things.I found splitting up my chosen verification processes to be of help. Confirming the existence of self beyond the scope of one physical body continues to be an interesting starting point and stills paves the way for other verifications to unfold naturally around them. It gradually assists, so it seems, in delivering confirmations without having forceful thoughts as "I want to know, now!!!". This was the method I discovered which works well for me.
BlueHaze wrote:
Do you mean that sometimes a person should extract those information that he or she deemed to be logical and combine it for his or her spiritual development? Sometimes, it is very tough to find out or even extract the logical information as it seems that most of them are logical.Anyway, I admit I've always found the Buddhist teachings interesting and felt it must have at least a certain part of the truth, just not necessarily the whole truth in a ready to digest form. So I would treat it as such, and same goes for any of our religion.. There perhaps once was higher knowledge (that of Mu for example) but we have to also remember when information is passed on, the message may get distorted.. at least that's my point of view on this matter for the time being..
Re: TP and the teaching of Buddha
That's the problem with written / spoken information, it's always delivered by some other medium rather than directly, so language and even the writers / teachers interpretation may color the information. Sometimes it may even be impossible to describe something accurately enough with mere words.. And for that reason alone I think it's OK not to expect everything to be complete from the start. Learning will shape things over time..Do you mean that sometimes a person should extract those information that he or she deemed to be logical and combine it for his or her spiritual development? Sometimes, it is very tough to find out or even extract the logical information as it seems that most of them are logical.
Best way to get fed up with learning is to always seek immediate results, I think this is also what Ronald pointed out previously..
Re: TP and the teaching of Buddha
this is a fascinating discussion thread, thanks everybody! Ive looked forward to discussing this aspect for a while, but hesitated as theres so many ways to approach it...It can be challenging. Was reading wiki on Buddhas views in Upālisutta dialogue of Majjhima Nikāya found that interesting.
Re: TP and the teaching of Buddha
Hello everyone,
My two cents imply a single contribution... FWIIW I remember a dialogue over at a kM forum seeking to discern the truth independent of beliefs and after quite some dialogues realizing that we initiated agreeing 100% while disagreeing 100%. I then was able to translate between belief languages in used and somewhat become free from the initial beliefs which ended me moving to a whole different perspective. As an example of 100% agreement while 100% disagreement consider the shared 'valid' statements: "One of us is right and one is wrong. I am right and you are wrong. I am I and you are you"... all along holding 'different' notions of who I and you represented. From that time I have more and more moved to an integrating singularity which transcends the dualistic framing... I hold its possible to know by just knowing. In fact I see that sometimes what isn't seeks to be instead of accepting that what isn't isn't... I find that knowing 'what be' sort of implies knowing (or being able to discern) what is and what isn't while knowing what isn't hardly implies actually knowing what is.
I mention this because of the focus I perceived in some of the posts here... regarding learning from 'differences' leading to the existence and perpetuation of differences... and how its practically impossible to 'have identical copies' made that the messages gets distorted by the messenger... BTW the belief in the impossibility of identical copies was a key element in the KM dialogue which we initially agreed upon and I was going to use to invalidate the others starting position... and which ended up enabling me to move and transcend the original beliefs... As it turned out it may have been dew to the fact that I would be able to expand and contract and translate and incorporate the different stands... If someone who is wrong tells me I am wrong I find it to be somewhat encouraging... for I may be right
Consider that the relativists invalidates their stand by rejecting the absolutist position or by embracing it... and that the absolutist can always be both an absolutist and a relativist at the same time by choosing that the absolute be the relative... how each can make sense of what I intend to share...
cordially
Et-1
My two cents imply a single contribution... FWIIW I remember a dialogue over at a kM forum seeking to discern the truth independent of beliefs and after quite some dialogues realizing that we initiated agreeing 100% while disagreeing 100%. I then was able to translate between belief languages in used and somewhat become free from the initial beliefs which ended me moving to a whole different perspective. As an example of 100% agreement while 100% disagreement consider the shared 'valid' statements: "One of us is right and one is wrong. I am right and you are wrong. I am I and you are you"... all along holding 'different' notions of who I and you represented. From that time I have more and more moved to an integrating singularity which transcends the dualistic framing... I hold its possible to know by just knowing. In fact I see that sometimes what isn't seeks to be instead of accepting that what isn't isn't... I find that knowing 'what be' sort of implies knowing (or being able to discern) what is and what isn't while knowing what isn't hardly implies actually knowing what is.
I mention this because of the focus I perceived in some of the posts here... regarding learning from 'differences' leading to the existence and perpetuation of differences... and how its practically impossible to 'have identical copies' made that the messages gets distorted by the messenger... BTW the belief in the impossibility of identical copies was a key element in the KM dialogue which we initially agreed upon and I was going to use to invalidate the others starting position... and which ended up enabling me to move and transcend the original beliefs... As it turned out it may have been dew to the fact that I would be able to expand and contract and translate and incorporate the different stands... If someone who is wrong tells me I am wrong I find it to be somewhat encouraging... for I may be right
Consider that the relativists invalidates their stand by rejecting the absolutist position or by embracing it... and that the absolutist can always be both an absolutist and a relativist at the same time by choosing that the absolute be the relative... how each can make sense of what I intend to share...
cordially
Et-1
Re: TP and the teaching of Buddha
This is indeed an interesting topic. Just my point of view, Karma in fact is a very abstract and profound topic. Rezo, if you got any progress in your analysis or understanding, please don't mind to post. Thanks.Rezo wrote:this is a fascinating discussion thread, thanks everybody! Ive looked forward to discussing this aspect for a while, but hesitated as theres so many ways to approach it...It can be challenging. Was reading wiki on Buddhas views in Upālisutta dialogue of Majjhima Nikāya found that interesting.