Interesting talk with a sect

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Interesting talk with a sect

Postby Rijzerlo on Tue Apr 05, 2011 5:40 am

I had a very inspiring talk with a sect today. They live close by (I never
knew!) and have a certain doomsday vision given to them by God.

The funny thing is that they have a pretty accurate prescription about
certain events, yet they use a very narrow point of view. She said she had
a prophecy from God (Higher Self, which I couldn't explain to her). I used
my knowledge of the eccentricity of the semi-solid core, the encounter of
solar flares (example febr. and Japan) and the fact that there are huge
flames predicted in 2012 due to shifting of the poles on the sun. Which
could explain the fact that birds are falling from the sky and wales flush on
land.

They definitely adopted the technological side of the story, but called me
a messenger from Satan for my point of view on the world and humanity. It's
a shame but they think that Joshua (Jesus) will come again and relief
ourselves from our sins by ruling over us in Jerusalem as we are then relieved from
our sins. When I told them it's less dangerous to explode a
nuclear bomb in your hands than to wait for something to happen, she
(leader) closed of and I couldn't reach them anymore. A shame, but of
course they have their own Freedom to choose their own knowledge.

Anyone else had a encounter with such people and how was it? I actually
have to laugh from being called a messenger from Satan. Proves to me that
they have a very limited knowledge and aren't able to comprehend any other
form of truth.
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Re: Interesting talk with a sect

Postby ET-1 on Tue Apr 05, 2011 3:56 pm

Yes I too have had similar interactions.... Most have a very limited knowledge and usually aren't able to comprehend any other form of truth... I am almost certain that I you and others would likely close of and be unable to be reached by certain stuff... because of what we choose to believe... unless we choose to accept a certain belief that changes what we perceive... something which may be practically impossible to do for some given their stand... At the risk of being alienated while seeking an inspiring dialogue... seems to me that in a way you be guilty of what you claim other are doing... and just cant comprehend their way, say how only through Jesus can one find the truth, peace, understanding, forgiveness... etc... Maybe the rule of Jesus means the rule of divine understanding, love, grace, truth, mercy, justice etc... the narrow door of divine love, the narrow door of divine truth, the narrow door of divine grace... Why would waiting for something to happen be associated to danger / fear instead of patience /peace... To borrow on some of your words - it's less dangerous to explode a nuclear bomb in your hands than to consider and believe some stuff because of the involved limitations and transformations. Curious to see what be you point of view on the world and humanity and what I have said ... It will be interesting so see the dialogue emerging from this thread...

cheers et
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Re: Interesting talk with a sect

Postby Rezo on Wed Apr 06, 2011 1:52 pm

the idea of waiting for something to happen essentially is giving ones power away to the whims of creation, rather than being part of it. many results may follow that may or may not coincide with the hope. this is almost like learned helplessness and the danger is when the result seems on the surface to trigger the goal-reward mechanism in the mind which believes it is result of 'answered prayers'....for this only reinforces the habit. and certainly this concern is applicable in groups which place ego above integrity and respect of free will and a spirit of friendly discussion [put simply].

similar to 'manifesting' theology whereby we create our reality simply just from thought alone, this is as ive heard called the plane of demonstration. without action behind intention there is only conjecture. to base ones life around conjecture sets one up for disappointment.

the problems resulting from translation of 'what so and so meant when he/she said this', is where discussions tend to go south. experience itself, is a good teacher. it may be and is not injurious to observe whats written to increase understanding, its just trickier. the more i try to explain the harder it gets as my context here is somewhat abstract.
" There is a single general space, a single vast immensity which we may freely call void: in it are unnumerable globes like this on which we live and grow, this space we declare to be infinite, since neither reason, convenience, sense-perception nor nature assign to it a limit."

-Giordano Bruno
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Re: Interesting talk with a sect

Postby ET-1 on Wed Apr 06, 2011 9:31 pm

Rezo

One possibility for waiting for something to happen can be to give ones powers away to the whims of creation rather than being part of it... there are other possibilities....

You are right that some stuff reinforces the habit and some stuff does the opposite... curiously some habits may have in place mechanisms to sustain them even when this involves holding distortions and contradictions... and some may have in place mechanisms to evolve and transform them... Some 'beliefs' are quite persistent even when the there be no actual foundation to holding them... and when there be actual foundations not to hold them... I had experienced this a while back... in a dialogue... fortunately for me the experience involved expanding and contracting at will without changing much... unfortunately for the other this was not possible to do for their case... If they expanded and contracted there was a fundamental change... This was sort of the plan from the beginning... seeking to move them from their belief over to mine so that we then could jointly explore the implications of and propositions I was espousing... Unfortunately that was to big of a hurtle for them... and while I did learn to translate between their belief language and mine they where unable to conciser what I was stating... which made it impossible to further the dialogue along certain domains...

You might have heard that this be called the plane of demonstration by those who desire demonstrations... This can be called the plane of experiences where matter thought feeling and intention commune...

Problems can certainly arise when projecting ones ideas about what be ... say instead of validating and corroborating them with 'the reality'... still sometimes projecting ones ideas about what be can lead to what be to correspond to what one thinks... experience can be a good teacher if the experience leads to learn a good lesson... as you state the more I try to explain the words with words the harder it gets to understand the words... I like abstract context because I learned that sometimes what I learn here I can apply it there and see the value of resolving a problem with variables and functions and then just plugging in the particular values... seems that if one understand the abstract one can readily understand the particular but if one just understands the particular the abstract understanding may sill elude us...

Here is an factual claim "Ultimately the experience may well depend on what be believe to be..." and while we be all forced to believe and enslaved by what we believe some beliefs liberate us... well the beliefs always enslave us its just that some beliefs have zero limits or infinite limits... for all practical reasons they actually liberate us...

hope you get what I intended to state...and find it enriching...

cheers et
I wonder how to get the sect of scientist to accept the reality of God...
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Re: Interesting talk with a sect

Postby Rijzerlo on Fri Apr 08, 2011 11:06 pm

Well, besides the fact that ending every sentence with ... (which for me is a difficult read, sorry, don't mean to insult) I do get most of your statement.

What I really find intriguing is the fact about how those sects, religions and others have adopted their believes in such an atomized matter that showing them a different part of the book is the same as showing them purple spaghettimonster with twelve faces. To ridiculous to be considered a truth.

Einstein quoted: "If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't understand it yourself."

This is -although most of his quotes are genius- one of his best, I try to adopt this in my explanations too. At a certain point the sect got to this:

"Only Joshua can rid us of our sins. We are born sinful and only He can rid us from that by his own sacrifice, which is the most valuable thing a human can do. God sees that we are not able to rule the world, that's why he starts over and sends Joshua to rule over us in Jerusalem. All those who do not see this will be excluded." I need to explain that she was open to the fact that there had been extinction by other highly evolved civilizations in the past. She had been with the pyramids, so in her eyes, the process repeats itself.

That statement is SO fragile, it can be broken easily. At that point I replied the next:

"What will we have learned from that? Imagine this. I am not careful and cross the street without looking when I go away from here. A car hits me and I should break both of my legs. Instead, however, YOU (the leader of the sect) break both your legs and have to lay in a hospital for the next month. *** would I have learned from that? Do you think I would be more careful next time? I don't think so, I can't be harmed anyway."

What I should have said was:

"If we messed up before, what is the point of humans to exist, why would God have any point in starting over with us anyway, since we seem only be able to destroy ourselves in the end."

It would be much more effective, since it disqualifies her statement completely within one sentence. But of course that is always afterwards. I did learn from it, so overall the experience was still positive, to me at least.

And conclusion: There is more intelligence in most six year olds than this sect, or perhaps I don't understand myself. 'Humans doubt EVERYTHING, except their own ignorance.
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Re: Interesting talk with a sect

Postby ET-1 on Sat Apr 09, 2011 2:16 am

Rijzerlo,

It may actually be difficult to read whichever way I write it :-)! Hope that you realize by now that I use the '...' to suspend a thought and then proceed on to the more considerations related to the issue. Will work to abstain from using the that form. I understand what you imply with the statement "To ridiculous to be considered a truth". Beliefs tend to be such that they persists even when there be no rational to persist. I was fortunate to learn about this a while back. The persistent belief I used to hold on to was that it was impossible to have two identical copies of knowledge is separate minds.

Now, consider that from within a distorted twisted belief system straightening out becomes practically impossible and the straighten seems twisted. You have to twist the twisted just right to straiten it all. I like to substitute concepts to clarify issues; For example if I where to state that we need to focus on evil to do good then most would point at the inherent contradiction involved in focusing on bad seeking good. Still if I where to state that we need to focus on the problem to find a solution most would NOT point at the inherent contradiction. I mention this because I like to substitute 'the truth' 'what be desirable sustainable congruent" for Joshua. Take a look at part of the interaction you reported with this substitutions:

"Only 'what be desirable sustainable congruent' can rid us of our sins. (znip) All those who do not see 'what be desirable sustainable congruent' will be excluded."

The reason Jesus suffered was because those who suffer made Him suffer instead of embracing the divine ways of love. Jesus came to show us the divine ways of love and through the divine ways of love reconcile us and save us. He did that out of divine love, for divine love with divine love. Some feel they should suffer to be forgiven when to be forgiven one just has to ask and its up to 'the offended' to forgive or demand retribution. We may learn about our mistakes in the effects it has in others. Just as we may learn about making the right choice in the effects it has in and for others. *** we may learn from what others do and not do, and other possibilities like projecting unto others what we need to see in ourselves because its easier to see it in others. Some possibilities can remain forever as mere possibilities without us having to actually experience them to learn what we best to learn.

You stated,
"If we messed up before, what is the point of humans to exist, why would God have any point in starting over with us anyway, since we seem only be able to destroy ourselves in the end."
Well because God loves us and wants us to make it in the end and can give us the time to make it right. To me the end will actually be the beginning of eternity. When you have all the time in the universe you eventually realize that only what be desirable sustainable congruent actually endures. After a while Death dies and life lives forevermore. Of course if this be the time to decide once and for all what direction to be in forevermore one better get it right.

You are likely right in claiming that there be more intelligence in most six year olds than that sect, or perhaps you don't understand yourself. Indeed 'Humans doubt EVERYTHING, except their own ignorance"... until they know better. It seems to me that at the core of everything, the crux of the matter, revolves around how to choose while ignorant. Some seek certainty even if it means embracing a delusion that they are certain does not exits. Ultimate our experience may stem from what we believe to be.

Cheers et
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Re: Interesting talk with a sect

Postby Rijzerlo on Sat Apr 09, 2011 8:36 am

Ah yes, but now it gets interesting:
'God loves us and wants us to make it in the end and can give us the time to make it right.'

Those 'believers' have adopted the believe that we are born sinful. They accept the fact that we are unfit to rule earth, and this is a repeatable process. You and I believe in the fact that time is unlimited, and we can use that time. They cannot see past their lifetime and as it were 'make a race' out of being as humble as possible, crawling through the dust (the story of Adam and Eve). Only to get a 'shot' of being accepted into the enlightened kingdom after death, called Heaven. All others will *** for eternity.

You see, if God were a truly intelligent intellect in their eyes, He would either have to find a more suitable form for us, which wouldn't mess up constantly after the destruction of our current society (break the loop in the process), or He would have to redefine the process as a whole, changing the very fabric of Nature so we wouldn't mess up (creating a more suitable process).

They believe that we will repeat for eternity, always falling into destruction at some point. In their eyes, God is loving, but stupid.

It is funny to note however, that there are many factors which are in line with what they believe and what is true. These people at some point heard truth but have distorted this image. The result being a bookwork with huge gaps in its storyline and people who accept the fact that they don't understand, just because it is not FOR THEM to understand. They rather crawl through the dirt and let someone else do the dirty work for them.

We are all Gods pets, maybe He should put us into a cage? Contrast helps in understanding.
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Re: Interesting talk with a sect

Postby ET-1 on Sat Apr 09, 2011 5:48 pm

What we have been, can be, will be, may be, could be, etc is both relevant and irrelevant to what be, and will be. Adopting the belief that we are born sinful or righteous destined to do this or that over and over repeatedly assumes a victims position. Seeking a way out of being for the being just creates a deceptive delusion that cages the being in an eternal quest that can only be transcended through enlightenment... which can happen at any instant but which one can do nothing to make happen. The irony is that the enlightened realize that to see past this instant one has to see past present and future all at once realizing that now be what matters. To 'make a race' out of being just to get into being... Running to be accepted into the enlightened kingdom after death distracts from enlightenment now and living a divine life and making heaven on earth. Crawling through the dust (the story of Adam and Eve) can be divine and wonderful. Evolving to higher levels only to realize that the highest one and the lowest ones are singularly equal.

To me God is truly intelligent and perfect. Creates only perfect beings. Being in essence will exits in a perfect place where only good be done. This will be a divine reward and grace to the good and a terrible torment to the bad. choose to be Good or bad you will be perfect doing only good. The bad will be so bad they do bad badly ending up doing only good. Indeed we will repeat for eternity what we choose to embrace now. Thus the importance of choosing wisely now! Some believe in always falling into destruction at some point to begin anew and will always falling into destruction at some point to begin anew... until they believe in cultivating what be constructive for once and all. Yes the twisted need to be twisted just so to for straightness to emerge.

I understand how accepting not to understand because is is not for one to understand way of dealing with uncertanty makes perfect sense, If we look at the original temptation it involved being able to discern and know good and evil instead of just knowing and doing what be best. Maybe crawling through the dirt and helping each other do the dirty work for each other is part of the ways of being.

Maybe we are in a cage of time and space until we learn how to be with God and others as friends, companions, etc... until the time where time ceases to be needed...

Adopting the belief that we determine our destines may be good and bad... to do this or that over and over repeatedly assumes a victims position... or an activists who cultivates what they desire to repeat

The cage of finite time that endures forever for those who choose to stay there seems like a nice cage to constrain the temporal within the infinite ... until everyone chooses the better ways of divine love... who knows maybe then the cage will be transformed into eden...

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Re: Interesting talk with a sect

Postby Rijzerlo on Sun Apr 10, 2011 10:40 am

In my opinion God is not perfect, this has been explained before. Perfect is something that is not able to proceed since there is no need for proceeding. Therefore there is no learning since there is already perfection and there is no need for us, since God (Great Intellect) is already perfect and has no use for us.

Try asking God to make something that is too heavy to lift. If he can create it, he is not perfect since he cannot lift the weight. If he can lift the weight, he is not perfect since he wasn't able to create something that is too heavy to lift.

The whole idea of something being perfect is contradictory, it would be more appropriate to say: "God ever-strives for perfection as the closer he gets to this, the more harmonious the universe will become."

The entire Universe is based on contrast which are by definition fantastic learning opportunities. Again, many parts of the "story" are based on reality, but put out of context. What you point out very well is that there are right choices and wrong choices, one has to choose which are right and wrong. Can he or she know what is right before experiencing it? No, but one can LEARN in order to not repeat the same fault twice and find a better, more effective solution. Being eventually able to make all the right choices instantly must be an enlightenment of the likes we aren't able to comprehend here on earth. At that point the only learning opportunities can be found in teaching others to make the right choices, applying to their Freedom of Choice in the most effective manner.

Therefore, real evil or good don't exist, just poor and better choices. One will see consequences (evil) of these wrong choices in order to learn from them and choose better (good) next time.

What most sects don't realize is that we are already at the bottom of the scale of enlightenment. If there would be a hell, this is it. We are the most primitive in the playground, and only by becoming more intelligent, understanding more, are we able to proceed from kindergarten to elementary school and so forth. Right now we aren't able to see past our own nose and can only see (awake) when we undergo the consequences of our own actions, like the destruction of nature we are doing right now. Too sit and wait for a so-called savior is therefore one of the most dangerous thing one can do, it shows total lack of understanding about how the Universe works. We can only get more intelligent, understand more, when we use our own intellect in a constructive and effective way, in harmony with the Universe and Nature.

Jesus said:

"If you say 'the kingdom is in the sky', the birds will get there before you. If you say 'it is in the sea', the fish will beat you to it. Rather the kingdom is within."
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Re: Interesting talk with a sect

Postby ET-1 on Sun Apr 10, 2011 5:42 pm

Hey, the idea that something is just impossible to be, inconceivable to be, reminds me of a different dialogue and some interesting insights that resulted. The fact that one does not have to , hardly implies that one is unable to, nor other possibilities.

In my opinion God is perfect. While there is no need for proceeding, there is a will for proceeding and loving. We do not need to do it, we want to do it. Thus we still be loved and created since God (Great Intellect) so desires.

How do you know God has no use for us, cant do what seems impossible to do?

If we define that The whole idea of something being perfect is contradictory THEN The whole idea of something being perfect is contradictory!
if we define that The whole idea of something being perfect is congruent THEN The whole idea of something being perfect is congruent.

The idea of defining this or that map, may be quite useful for a journey, just as it may become a distraction in the territory, and most fail to even distinguish the distinctions involved sometimes even mixing thing up. When by definition the entire Universe is a fantastic learning opportunity based on contrasts THEN it follows that the contrasts will be an essential part of everything in that universe... until we consider and observe that the entire universe includes stuff 'without contrasts', which incidentally involves being 'the contrast' of the entire universe based on contrasts. Certain experiences require being able to integrate what seems like contrasts and transcend them, akin to zero limits and infinite limits leading to a space where limits do not exists (or a space where the limits are complete). I get an intellectual kick when a relativists rejects the absolute way or accepts the absolute way for in doing either they reject their relativistic ways. Something similar takes place with the absolute claim that states there are no absolutes... Note that the absolute claim that there is an absolute truth does not enter into self-contradictions, and how the absolutists can always be both an absolutists and a relativists, something that the relativists can only do when it happens to be that the particular relative corresponds to the absolute.

Thanks for pointing out that I pointed out very well "there are right choices and wrong choices, one has to choose which are right and wrong" though note that I pointed that discernment between good and bad be part of the original temptation. My point questioned the idea of actually being able to discern and know what is right, before, during, after experiencing something. Even the notion of being able to LEARN in order to repeat and find a better, more effective solution is challenged! I hold we be able to make all the right choices instantly NOW, Though making all the right choices instantly NOW rarely takes place. We are able to comprehend here on earth, question is do we actually comprehend here on earth. We can teaching others to make the right choices, and learn to make the right choices, apply to their Freedom of Choice in the most effective manner while also restricting the choices. Real evil and good exists! Each freely chooses which to feed, knowingly or unknowingly! Note that some may be unable, unwilling, deluded to see the consequences of their actions, thinking that they had (didn't have) a choice (alternate choices) to make . *** some may think to be doing good when doing bad and will repeat it next time at infinitum forever deceived and trapped. With stuff like 'no pain no gain' "it takes lots of work to get it". I agree that this could be hell, just as this could be purgatory and even heaven. Thinking and doing some things could be one of the most dangerous thing one can do, for it shows total lack of understanding about how the Universe works and could affect the whole of creation.. We can only hope and believe that some of our actions lead to good and learning and insights. I do wonder if we can get more intelligent by what we do, seems to me we need the divine in order to accomplish it. I agree with you that we better use our own intellect in a constructive and effective way, in harmony with the Universe and Nature.. for our own good and the good of everyone and everything else.

Maybe the fact is that the birds have gotten to the kingdom before us and the fish have beaten us to it and seeking within and without is a waste of time, for we need to cultivate it just right, allow it to grow within us, for it to become manifested throughout everything including us.

Remember that this thread was about an interesting dialogue with a sect and how difficult it was to consider and accept certain stuff... I took that seeking to jointly explore what we could do to better understand and deal with such situations in dealing with such things. I have reflected it back to certain stuff we hold to see what we can learn and change in ourselves. It usually boils down to what we choose to believe and the experiences that result from it. Do hope you see this as a stimulating enriching interchange.

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Re: Interesting talk with a sect

Postby Rijzerlo on Sun Apr 10, 2011 10:01 pm

Oh believe me, I do. I love a challenge. You definitely take me out of comfort zone and make me look deeper and beyond. I have to say that the best thing I learned from talking to this sect, is the fact that one can be so set on his or her believes, one is unwilling to change it for anything. Therefore every other opinion is consider false by definition.

The real exercise is to learn how to provoke these people into looking beyond. I found that asking questions about gaps in the storyline is proven effective, since it pulls these people outside their comfort zone and makes them look deeper.

To get back to one of your first points. Perhaps it is true to be able to make every right choice right now right here. However, with our current lack of understanding, even about one of the most obvious things like gravity and nature, there is no way we would be able to make these choices conscious. We are simply to stupid. Those very few who are able to, will proceed more enlightened when reaching the end of this lifetime (or even during lifetime, like Buddha). If we were able to make the right choices, Knowingly, Instantly, Continuously, then where is the learning curve? Why would we be here if we were able to? I am sure the Earth would look quite differently. This all points back to the fact that we are indeed on a lower 'evolutionary scale', and we have indeed chosen to be here.

There is absolutely no point in putting a six year old into a university.

Hoping and believing that some of our action will be the right ones is very dangerous. We need to LEARN to UNDERSTAND why we make these choices and what is the result of them. Only then will we truly get more intelligent (enlightened) and are we able to proceed forwards in the Universe. Every other way leads to either nowhere, or self-destruction. When trying NOT to think for a while, the mind definitely becomes less active, and intelligence decreases. We see this all around us, and are able to experience ourselves, if we choose to do so. I take an example in people who have used alcohol do literally drink their intelligence away. A truly saddening sight.

It is true that we can hope. But the thing I hope for is that there are enough Individual Intellects willing, freely, to adopt the truth instead of some false doctrine. This is the only way that will prove there is an Earth worth saving. Continuing along our current path will lead to certain destruction, wether we believe it or not.

I do want to ask you to deeper explain one sentence you put out:
"The very idea of perfect being contradictory is contradictory."
Why is that?
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Re: Interesting talk with a sect

Postby ET-1 on Mon Apr 11, 2011 3:41 pm

Rijzerlo,

Have you noticed how by definition the other opinion is consider false applies to how you consider their approach? Hope you look beyond and look deeper. As you mention "the fact that one can be so set on his or her believes, one is unwilling to change it for anything" can present quite a challenge. I was fortunate to learn about this a while back in a different interaction. I originally believed like my counterpart that identical copies of knowledge could just not exists in separate minds. Changing to accepting the belief that they could actually exists was a bit of a challenge, especially since that made my strategy turn towards me instead of towards them and made the dialogue turn somewhat. Maybe the challenge now be to be able to make these choices with our current lack of understanding. Why does there have to be a learning curve?

We may be here even if we were able to do certain stuff and have certain understanding under the spell of forgetfulness and limitation for the challenges presented. Maybe the point is putting an adult with a doctorate into kindergarden for them to learn and teach stuff with the kids there.

Do we in fact need to LEARN to UNDERSTAND why we make these choices and what is the result of them? Maybe we just need to make the right choices independently of actually understanding why. We may be able to proceed forwards in the universe gracefully and happily haphazardly discovering amazing wonderful stuff at every moment. I been thought that sometimes we need NOT to think for a while, and let the mind becomes more active, and intelligent. We see this all around us, and are able to experience it ourselves, if we choose to do so. I take an example in people who have used going for a walk to get the answer they been searching for all day. You use some examples to make a point and there certainly are cases as you describe just as there are other examples to consider. I wonder if you want to focus on the ways to put 'intelligence away' and 'saddening sights'. Personally I been on a quest to watch what I state, and what it cultivates. BTW the proof does not alter the truth it only proves it. The earth is worth saving even when its because of a single loving being existence here. Continuing along our current path will lead to certain destruction, wether we believe it or not IF we be heading towards destruction. The path is one and the same, question is which destination one be heading towards. Everyone believes they be heading the right way, the key resides in actually heading the right way.

You want me to explain one sentence you claim I put out when it is something you stated in which something was defined to be by definition:
I in essence stated
If we define that (this be) THEN (this be)!
if we define that (something else be) THEN (something else be).

Wanted to point to and draw attention at the definition taking place, because that may define what be perceived in the experience. Note that I also put another alternative and for whatever reason you choose to focus on (this be) instead of (something else be). This in a way goes back to what you stated "the fact that one can be so set on his or her believes, one is unwilling to change it for anything".

Do hope you see our interactions as enriching, stimulating, entertaining and 'challenging'. Far from seeking to take you out of your comfort zone and make you uncomfortable I desire to expand the comfort zone to include certain alternatives which may be enriching ...

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Re: Interesting talk with a sect

Postby Rijzerlo on Mon Apr 11, 2011 9:56 pm

I asked to enlighten that statement because I couldn't get a grip on the matter, but thanks for explaining, I believe you have the next view on life, please correct me if I'm wrong of course:

You believe that up to certain levels, things happen, because they happen. There isn't a learning curve existent, since they occur as being part of nature. Well I challenge you:
Have you ever done anything in your life that didn't provide you with even the smallest bit of learning?

I can look over my entire life, day by day, and confirm a 100% that I have never had moments in which I wasn't learning. The entire World and Universe is based on learning and learning opportunities. Its all around and within us. Even not thinking (like meditation or indeed taking a relaxing walk) provides us with learning. We learn how to more effectively Not to think in order to create room in our mind to let new ideas flow in.

And lets face it, isn't it much more fun to become more intelligent? It satisfies me greatly to have even a small grip of the concept of our Universe, even if its small, because the more we know, the more questions we get and the more we can learn from that.

When Einstein said: "He (god) doesn't play dice" it is clear that he meant just that. There are no accidents, just learning moments, decisions. Everything out there is set there for a reason, not just because it happens to be so.

The evidence is all around us, even when taking different points of view, they continually wind back to the same basic logic no matter which religion, cult or believe you take
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Re: Interesting talk with a sect

Postby ET-1 on Tue Apr 12, 2011 1:29 am

Wether I have the next view on life (or not), who knows?

I believe that things happen for a reason. I believe that we will experience certain things until we learn the lesson and can experience other stuff. For example, the selfish being will have a hard time sharing their stuff until they learn to be generous and enjoy sharing their stuff. Those that believe they must suffer/work to enjoy, will suffer/work to enjoy until they learn that they can enjoy without suffering by sharing stuff. Things get a bit more complicated when those who suffer insists other must suffer too instead of learning to enjoy and enjoying.

I asked why does a learning curve need to exists because I see that you seem to claim that it just must exist. I sort of 'challenge you to explain what you hold to believe' to see if there be reasons to it. Again - You use some examples to make a point and there certainly are cases as you describe just as there are other examples to consider -. Sure every moment can be considered a learning experience just as every moment can be considered a love act. Thus I can look over my entire life, day by day, and confirm a 100% that I have always had moments in which I was loved or loved.. weather I knew it or not is another matter :-) What is more fun to become more intelligent, to become more loving, to be lovingly intelligent amazingly happy being in abundance of what be good and lacking of all bad? Indeed God doesn't play dice, God knows everything, even how to make what be practically impossible to be be practical and possible. I hold that God is the only one who can actually ensure we get it right, we just have to let Him help us. Something I did not remember seeing in the Thiaoouba Prophecy was a direct acknowledgment of God. As you state "The evidence is all around us, even when taking different points of view, they continually wind back to the same basic logic no matter which religion, cult or believe you take" if focused on the truth. Sometimes I prefer to use the filter of what be sustainable-desirable-congruent with the ways of love. Precisely because it acknowledges God for all that be sustainable desirable congruent stems from Him.

I been thinking all day that I needed to clarify something I posted on brothers look out for brothers well being and intervening to ensure well being of each and all. Evidently each is free to choose what to do, its just nice when one does good deeds for others out of love.

cheers et
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Re: Interesting talk with a sect

Postby Rijzerlo on Wed Apr 13, 2011 7:13 am

You raise an excellent point, but I would say that we are here to Learn loving. Every moment can indeed be viewed as being loved, however I have to say that I am not loved in every action I have ever done in my entire life. This because the level of love is determined by our level of understanding, therefore our level of intelligence. It isn't for nothing that higher feelings become higher -or bigger- when one is able to understand better the motives, action and consequences one (or others) have to face. In my surroundings, even family, not everyone is evolved, or intelligent, enough to understand my actions, or to understand how nature works. Therefore those can LIKE nature, but they do not love its magnificence and its creator.

If you indeed have been loved at every moment for your entire life, and considering that parental love is a given, I have excluded that in my calculations, then you truly should have a blissful life.

Of course one could say that Great Intellect is also ever-loving, but as we are all part of Itself (or Himself if referring to God), it would basically be Him loving himself. We should for this example stick to the direct love produced by a communication between two equals, because this love is more physical and "noticeable". I am sure the Great Intellect also has its filters to pick out any 'bad seeds' as they would fall into their own destruction if they kept being stupid, insisting not to learn anything. Intelligence can decrease when trying not to be smart for a while.

I can say for a fact that I do not Love every human being (yet), because I have lots to LEARN about the matter. Why some kill, why some ignore every aspect of nature, even ridicule it. At this point, I am at most able to give mutual respect to every human being. Only when I fully UNDERSTAND, and I mean fully, that lack of understanding in other individuals is mostly cause of certain bad choices, will I be able to give more than just respect. But that would mean a grand fine-tuning of my filters, which again, I can only attain by learning more.

In my opinion, whatever point is being tackled, whether from religion, love, or understanding, it always goes back to learning. God created learning opportunities to optimize the chance of being loved.

I really like this sentence, thanks for sharing it. it explains very well the point I was trying to make:

"Those that believe they must suffer/work to enjoy, will suffer/work to enjoy until they learn that they can enjoy without suffering by sharing stuff. Things get a bit more complicated when those who suffer insists other must suffer too instead of learning to enjoy and enjoying"
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