Interesting talk with a sect

General discussion about the two books by Michel Desmarquet. Please ONLY post questions that do not fit in any of the available specialized forums.

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shezmear
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Re: Interesting talk with a sect

Post: # 12383Post shezmear »

ET just to clarify I`m not making it o.k for them to exist I`m saying they will always appear, does not mean I want them to or I support them in any way.But that is the nature of these planets.It`s like children will always play with matches, and get burnt.I don`t play with matches anymore.Need I say I`m all for helping others cultivate their mind, I just need to sort out my own.... :rofl:
By their deeds shall you know them.
J.C
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Re: Interesting talk with a sect

Post: # 12384Post ET-1 »

Jc,

Just to clarify, claiming that is the nature of things may enable, support and make the things exist... When the nature of the experience stems from what individuals hold to believe the individuals can freely choose to get entrapped within a real nightmare until the individuals choose to believe differently which isn't likely to happen within the entrapment since the individual believe that the nightmare be the only choice available... add to that a twisted logic where the self entrapped choose to belong to the sect and where the logic of the sect sees outsiders as seeking to enslave them instead of liberate them... and things get interesting...

nature of these planets is to a great extent determined by the collective choices of individuals which feed the nature and choices of the individuals. The individuals can change the nature of the planets if they choose to do so but are 'educated' conditioned to maintain things, even coerced by others against choosing to change certain ways.

BTW consider that helping others sort and cultivate their mind will help sort and cultivate your mind... there may not be a need to actually sort out anything we may just need to realize how to use the stuff that is all over the place :-)...

cheers et
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shezmear
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Re: Interesting talk with a sect

Post: # 12386Post shezmear »

Just to clarify, claiming that is the nature of things may enable, support and make the things exist...
Na..you may be over estimating my influence... :lol: Further to rob another of their freedom of choice , the god given learning curve is far worse then allowing others to live their lives and learn from their errors, Make no mistake about that.

When the nature of the experience stems from what individuals hold to believe the individuals can freely choose to get entrapped within a real nightmare until the individuals choose to believe differently which isn't likely to happen within the entrapment since the individual believe that the nightmare be the only choice available... add to that a twisted logic where the self entrapped choose to belong to the sect and where the logic of the sect sees outsiders as seeking to enslave them instead of liberate them... and things get interesting...


oh they are already interesting...have you ever had to deal with anyone in a cult?......you know what I found?...in the end every last one of them wakes up.Because we all are inexorably on a collusion course with universal truth.Whether we like it or not.

BTW consider that helping others sort and cultivate their mind will help sort and cultivate your mind...

I`ll take this as a side benefit via default, not the intent behind helping anybody.

I re written this a few times and I`m trying to figure what I can say to you...I feel like you`ve trying to paint me into some corner with politically correct sudo spiritual law or ideas.And it may extend to your ideas of spirituality is for everyone to think like you.Which is not a problem, we all done it, I just think I`m not interested in paying lip service to your ideals because that is not the world I see or live in.Most of the time I`m not here to sound right.Although at one point I may have agreed with you, I don`t think like that anymore.So it`s like your throwing these laws at me, but I have my own and I good with them.
By their deeds shall you know them.
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shezmear
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Re: Interesting talk with a sect

Post: # 12387Post shezmear »

Just to clarify, claiming that is the nature of things may enable, support and make the things exist...
An observation of a fact does not equal perpetuation nor does it equal manifestation, interesting to note your slight of hand there, nice card trick.... :lol:
By their deeds shall you know them.
J.C
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Re: Interesting talk with a sect

Post: # 12394Post ET-1 »

I thought I responded how 'quantum mechanics' teaches us that an observation does impact the manifested (well it may just impact our observation of it). I wonder if I never submitted my response, if it got lost in cyberspace, if it is waiting for approval or what happened to it... maybe I just thought I responded without responding. OH well se la vi...

shezmear, you are right with the feeling that I am seeking to paint some notion of reality that everyone should consider, that is fore everyone, based on 'what be' instead of 'what someone wants to believe'. I would prefer from getting into the possession of ideas. I would prefer us to focus on The notions of reality according to the reality. In fact I realize that I see and live in a world quite different from yours, just as sect members live in a world of their own. I realize that you see and live in a world quite different from mine, just as sect members live in a world of their own. By this I am not judging which sect is right, better, etc... just exploring each sect's laws and pictures and stories by throwing these at each other... Maybe we will discover a truth here and a truth there and enrich each other understanding. That has been my intent throughout this thread. I also realize the difficulty that giving up a belief entails.

BTW I wonder if in fact an observation of a fact does not equal perpetuation nor does it equal manifestation. Ultimately, to a great extent, our understanding boils down to what we choose to believe and I wonder what we each can do to understand stuff we do not believe to be and embrace better beliefs. I observe how many play the nice card trick "you just want to always be right". Well in a way I do, and will readily welcome, accept and correct myself, whenever I realize I am wrong. I observe how many (including myself at times) follow a different pattern and continue to embrace what they believe to be instead of what be and I wonder what practices to follow to guard against maintaining false beliefs that keep us from learning and growing.

Cheers et
Rijzerlo
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Re: Interesting talk with a sect

Post: # 12395Post Rijzerlo »

I have been away for a while and with limited internet access right now I will look back the link some later time.

My impression about the fact that everyone eventually wakes up from being a cult member is first of all suiting (we're not completely lost after all) but also very logical. To my opinion it boils down to contrast again. When being member of a certain cult, one is usually subject to a very narrow span view of the world. It is with our curiosity that we are able to open our eyes a little further, looking beyond and discovering the narrow-minded face that is the essence of a cult or sect, no matter what they proclaim about themselves.

E.T. to get back at your comment "contrast of contrast". This to my opinion is obviously doing nothing, creating no contrast whatsoever and staying stupid. People who try to remain stupid will feel their intelligence slip away and will find that it is not a good idea to do, to say the least. When removing every form of motivation or intent, one basically also eliminates every chance of feeling higher feelings like love. Not to mention creating a lack of stimulation and plain old Fun. Without fun in life, why bother living? You'd have to be pretty stupid to want and try to remove the nice aspects of life, but that there speaks for itself doesn't it? It is stupid to try and remain stupid. Quite the bottomless pit if you ask me.

When in discussion about the fact that the sect did the right thing (like trying to sustain themselves better according to nature), only by the wrong ideas, a very intelligent person told me this:

"There is a great term in sports for this: disqualification. No matter how well you play all the other parts of a game, you will still get disqualified for your mistake."

Although it is pretty narrow, there is a certain element of basic logic in the statement, which leaves me with the following question: *** did that woman perceive those messages? They were very accurate like "The dynamo of the Earth is broken" (Of course meaning there is a dis-balance in the Earths magnetic core). A few of my conclusions:

1. She was able to perceive because she had a clean mind which provided a clear path for the message to be perceived. Perhaps we all are receiving these messages but are unable to hear them (I unfortunately am unable to sustain a blank mind through meditation. I am to unexperienced in this field but am practicing)

2. She was able to hear the messages, but only because those who are supposed to hear it were unable to. This way the ones will get the message anyway.

3. She and her cult are right (I disagree with this option, but only mention it because the option exists)

Anyone care to comment?
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shezmear
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Re: Interesting talk with a sect

Post: # 12398Post shezmear »

When this person was in a cult you could not show or tell her other wise, she was so head strong, so sure... read the full article.

http://www.smh.com.au/national/in-thral ... 16odx.html

She was part of about 30 people that joined the cult for that year, she was the last one standing after 10 years.Everyone else slowly but surly went, o.k this is getting a bit silly.Some went and got therapy to try and put it in perspective
most just got on with their life.

Now their out , they now see...when she was in there there is nothing anyone would could do.she even took out a restraining orders against her own family as they keep trying to help her.

Does not mean you should try and help but it`s one of those things you have to see first hand to really get it.

Oh I forget..how did I forget to mention this?.... my x has joined a cult and with my daughter who is only a child.After many arguments and fights I realized that well, if you want to wreck your life after everything I have tired to do over the last 7 years..hell go ahead.If you want to go around knocking on people doors and handing out stuff in the streets trying to convince them to join a cult go ahead.
Because I`m out of moves, if you want to believe this man is 48.000 years old wondering about the earth conducting miracles and everything he says is truth then knock your self out.And when you wake and you will, I`ll be here.
I`ve been in one I`ve seen good people join them.

Which cult?..this one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCpuN8_XVRM
By their deeds shall you know them.
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Rijzerlo
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Re: Interesting talk with a sect

Post: # 12399Post Rijzerlo »

It could possibly provide the best lesson your ex will ever witness. Even if it takes a while. While I have a strong resentment against the fact that your daughter will also be dragged into it (I saw children in the sect I visited too), it could be a good lesson for her too. What I see with children often is that they are much better at predicting bad situations and have a much more open mind. They haven't been cluttered yet. When the time is right she too will find the big open world much more enjoyable than some silly cult with false claims.

I must admit that my view on this world involves that we are here because we Choose to learn to live and love, however when I see a child fall victim to what someone clearly unfit to teach says and does, it is quite heartbreaking. But who am I to judge that that child did not choose that live because of those specific learning opportunities?

If I could give you one advice on how to deal with this situation shezmear (at least the one I can come up with). It is too keep contact with your ex and your daugther. Show a certain point of interest in their development within the cult. Don't discard it, but just show general interest. After all you have been in one yourself and are "eager" to know how there's works out for them. Keep it friendly in order not to lose them. After a while, ask them for their experiences. Also ask about how they feel about those experiences, was it pleasant? Did it make them feel like it helped them? Does it have a bright future?

When asking these questions, you actually trigger them to think for themselves. When they think for themselves long enough, the perhaps tiniest hesitation about the honesty of this cult can and will grow out to a enormous doubt.

People can only truly escape when they think for themselves and the only way we can help is trigger them to do so. Just as the cult brainwashes people, it can be turned against them as well. Never underestimate the power of a implanted thought. After all, that is what the cult does.

So when you yourself repeat the process of asking about their experiences and how they Feel about it, the trigger will be repeated over and over. When you will finally get an answer that shows certain points of doubt, you'll know that you are on the right track and you can begin cultivating those doubts. Reflect their experiences with the world outside, give them a thought about how it would be if they wouldn't be in the cult. Remember to try and stay positive throughout this entire path, when negative about something someone else believes in, that person will close him or herself of from you for sure.

And if you decide to take this path and help out your ex and daughter, keep in touch on this forum, there are a lot of people here who could help you when faced with certain difficulties :)
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Re: Interesting talk with a sect

Post: # 12400Post ET-1 »

Rijzerlo

Particularly Like the notions of:
- Never underestimate the power of a implanted thought.
- when negative about something someone else believes in, that person will close him or herself of from you for sure.
- When you will finally get an answer that shows certain points of doubt, you'll know that you are on the right track and you can begin cultivating those doubts.

I been seeking to explore throughout this thread a sort of introspection, by seeking to shift from 'them' into 'us' and applying what is said as if we be the cult members. I have also been 'challenging' beliefs held to invite wonder and ponder into how much we behave like delusional cult members; Though this seems like 'pushing' with a string a cult member to open up when the minds doors needs to gently be pulled open. I am enjoying this quite a bit and find it enriching. Personally I been wondering about the power of entrapment of the ideas we hold and cultivate, knowingly and not; what one can do to realize a false belief as a false belief and a true belief as a true belief, and better ways to interact with others. I noticed that the idea of 'consider that you be in a cult' has been ignored, and the invitations to wonder and ponder about beliefs held let to a restatement of the beliefs. It is as if making the claim over and over will evidently convince us that the claim is true. In particular I am referring to the notion of 'contrast', because at present dualistic stuff is a red flag to me. I wonder if we actually need the bad stuff to learn about the good stuff. On that same chain of thought, when I see 'negative' words something similar happens. To me the contrast to contrast' be consistency, or sustainable-desirable-congruent with life ways. In fact to me the notion of 'contrast' seems like the claim 'there be no absolute truth', which resorts to an absolute truth.

As I have mentioned I like to wonder and ponder about the veracity of claims. Will considering many possibilities and observe if the claims holds true in them all. If it does it means it has a better chance of being true but there is always the possibility that a fluke will reveal a new insight that changes it all. I can think of a case where it is wise to be stupid and try and remain stupid, especially if we consider stupidity as ignorance. Its wise to be ignorant of Pandora's box contents because they remain contained and bound within the box forever. Curiously 'the original temptation' involved the ability to discern good and bad... and it seems most be constantly seeking certainty in an uncertain world instead of learning to deal with uncertainty in a certain way.

You'd have to be pretty stupid to want and try to include the bad aspects of life, but some insist on it because they still have to learn better ways.

Cheers et

Will read the full article pointed to and comment latter ...
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Re: Interesting talk with a sect

Post: # 12401Post ET-1 »

From the article ''Prison walls and chains are not necessary when one believes these things,'' !

Indeed we are all slaves to what we believe while free to choose what to believe... even when the beliefs liberate us, we be free slaves... most seek to keep us bound deceived within their ways. The article also points out that seekers and those people looking for guidance risk getting entangled within the cults snares.

shezmear, I wonder a bit concerned if you your comments in past posts are related to seeing my propositions as snarling and trying to entrap into cult like stuff... Scares me to think of that possibility, because its the complete opposite of my intention here, though applying what I read and heard at the links made me wonder, for it does seems plausible. In a way the idea that embracing some way be the only way to get it ultimate leading into enslavement can be quite frightening. On the same note the idea that cult members reject those ideas that would liberate them and keep them bound also can be quite worrisome. Each ultimately chooses who and what to believe. Unsure at this moment what to say or do. I have for a long time desired to change some things about myself and find it quite difficult to do because anything I find is distorted by what I think so that I think I am changing while ultimately remaining the same.

Let me pose a question for each and all that I consider to be at the core of this thread: How does one know that what one holds to be corresponds to what be? How does one learn to know what one does not understand nor know nor even doubt about knowing? (especially when it requires believing something one disbelief's be)

Cheers et
Rijzerlo
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Re: Interesting talk with a sect

Post: # 12402Post Rijzerlo »

I understand that the word contrast can resort to the claim "There is no absolute truth", where that notion becomes the absolute truth. But perhaps there's your answer, the absolute truth is that there is no absolute truth (I believe Einstein mentioned this??) That being said, I have the next question for you:

What do you need when you want to observe possibilities in order to see if they hold any form of truth?

Isn't it contrast? Seeing the opposite in order to grand more truth or viability to a certain point of view or action?

When talking about 'implanting and cultivating thoughts', these sound suspiciously like cult sayings, I agree. However there is one fundamental difference, a cult is closed and the world is open. So open in fact that 'only by gently opening the door' as you put that out so well, will there be a possibility of a clear view of the other side.

It is a funny thing to mention that we would all be in some sort of cult, because in a way we are. But then I would like to say that there is a difference between a name and an action involving that name. The word cult is just that, a word. What we do in and with our lives is much more important than how we name that. In that spirit of thoughts, not all cults are wrong. As long as we keep remembering that there is room for change in our lives (or room for contrast if you will).

Only when taking a wrong turn will we be able to truly identify the right path on which to tread.

All we can do is hope that eventually everyone is able to find the right path and in the meanwhile, we should guide those who seem to be truly lost. This being one of the most noble things we can do with our lives.
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Re: Interesting talk with a sect

Post: # 12403Post ET-1 »

Rijzerlo,

Stange the incongruence of the notion requires that which it denies to be to be... Its like the relativists who in denying the absolute way, denies the relativists way, and in embracing the absolute way denies the relativists way... No matter what the 'true' relativists ends up an absolutist... The notion "There is an absolute truth" is congruent and valid even if the only absolute truth is that there is one absolute truth ... Oh and the absolutist can always become both an absolutists and a relativists!

Lately I been thinking that some possibilities ought to remain as possibilities forevermore. To know the truth one needn't know the lies for one can just know the truth and knowing the truth enables one to determine if stuff corresponds to that truth or to lies. When one knows the lies one may or may not know the actual truth. Knowing the lies does not enable one to determine what corresponds to the truth, one just knows some of the lies. I am not sure that opposites are required to get an expanded understanding. 3D vision results from integrating two points of view, adjacent to each other not opposite to each other. Maybe integrating alternate points of view within one encompassing understand where the result is more than the sum of the parts be the key.

Sorry if the words used sound suspiciously like cult saying, hope that suspiciousness and words used does not hinder our dialogues.. that we be each cautiously evaluate the stuff and choose to cultivate trust, truth and understanding. One of the things I am sort of weary off is an appeal to authority, I say each is ultimately responsible for their thoughts words actions and feelings. Glad you finally got the notion that we sort of are immersed within our own cult. Yea we like to say that our cult is different even thought its just like the rest. I agree that we need to be open to good stuff and being closed to bad stuff... recognizing the difficulty of knowing without knowing... Quick do not think of an apple... see you did think of what I told you not to think off :-) Had I said think of an elephant, you would likely had not thought of an apple. I used to wonder about "how do you get the bully not to be a bully without bulling them"? Or how do you get the ignorant not to be ignorant without dealing with their ignorance? And there is actually some good stuff out there sort of dealing with this. The book "Switch" is a good read. Indeed not all cults are wrong... or to put it another way some addictions are good... we sometimes call them habits :-). Sure there is always possibilities to change... some should be embrace and made into realities and some should just remain as possibilities.

You mention that only when taking a wrong turn will we be able to truly identify the right path on which to tread ignores the fact we may recognize and identify right markers on the right path that confirm that we are on the right path (never needing to take a wrong turn) always choosing to take the right way... The deeper question I been sort of presenting is:
If truly lost how can we find the right path considering everyone else is as clueless as we are (especially when each and all claim to know the way)?

The way I deal with can be framed as "be it real be it a dream always choose the better way":

Cheers et
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Re: Interesting talk with a sect

Post: # 12404Post shezmear »

If I could give you one advice on how to deal with this situation shezmear (at least the one I can come up with). It is too keep contact with your ex and your daugther. Show a certain point of interest in their development within the cult. Don't discard it, but just show general interest. After all you have been in one yourself and are "eager" to know how there's works out for them. Keep it friendly in order not to lose them. After a while, ask them for their experiences. Also ask about how they feel about those experiences, was it pleasant? Did it make them feel like it helped them? Does it have a bright future?

Yes agree...


So when you yourself repeat the process of asking about their experiences and how they Feel about it, the trigger will be repeated over and over. When you will finally get an answer that shows certain points of doubt, you'll know that you are on the right track and you can begin cultivating those doubts. Reflect their experiences with the world outside, give them a thought about how it would be if they wouldn't be in the cult. Remember to try and stay positive throughout this entire path, when negative about something someone else believes in, that person will close him or herself of from you for sure.

And if you decide to take this path and help out your ex and daughter, keep in touch on this forum, there are a lot of people here who could help you when faced with certain difficulties :)

Yes will do...part of the thing is that she has not taken the time to investigate the founding of the cult.There is info readily available.Which leads me to the conclusion which is not just made on watching her but watching myself is that people see what they want to see.Because they have an investment in the out come.I think this desire comes first then they choose to disregard all other possibility's.You know?..It`s like believing in this ideology for fills are part of their emotional self.And yet the truth to life is actually quite liberating when you know it you don`t need to settle for a false ideology.

And I agree with this...I wonder if we actually need the bad stuff to learn about the good stuff.

It may seem hard hearted but when I examine my own life and the life of others I seen examples of this.I once herd someone say when you are young you have to learn the hard way.And there are many ways to move through life.Most times what determines whether a problem is embellished or continued is the way it is handled.Were you go with it.I often look through my own mind and I realize that many of the problem I carry, I choose to carry through bad metal hygiene.And I have to say to myself out loud "let got it, it is over now.what you have is today".Most times I have to council myself, like a child.

shezmear, I wonder a bit concerned if you your comments in past posts are related to seeing my propositions as snarling and trying to entrap into cult like stuff.

No I don`t think you were trying anything like that..but I did note the way I started to try and both justify and define my views.As though I needed to poof something to you.So all of the sudden I give my power over to you to judge as that is good or bad.So all of a sudden I need to play catch up.It`s very subtle but goes on a lot in life.
I don`t fully understand it,yet but I am sensitive to when it happens.I think we have a clash of ideas and in most cases people need to have a winner and a looser, something which I have never really been into.I think people find their own level on things.

In a way the idea that embracing some way be the only way to get it ultimate leading into enslavement can be quite frightening.


You can actually witness it happening to your self through out life with many interactions with people...what is important I found is for your mind to be responsibly and business of you alone.Again I`m only just learning about this so I don`t fully understand it but I think it has to do with self.

I have for a long time desired to change some things about myself and find it quite difficult to do because anything I find is distorted by what I think so that I think I am changing while ultimately remaining the same

Yes...Some behaviors I have put down then picked them back up.Example Some behaviors make you feel alive and in my view they are essential to the physical experience and in that some level of physical happiness.I have found that these behaviors are o.k to keep.One does not have to be a utter aesthetic in one life, of course unless one wants to.

One of the things I have done is audition behavior...I try things out when I meet people or on people I have known.I tend to reflect a lot maybe to much.When you try things you can see how you feel afterwards.Usually when I really do something as a pose to just think about it , it really helps me to figure out if I want to keep that behavior.Most times I keep tally inside myself to see how I went, how to I feel about my actions or lack of.Sometimes year latter I realize I maybe should have done something else.

At this point in my life my tally actually is pretty good considering some of the things I could have done in my life.I personally have a issue with physically being a kind of giving person but having the mind of a tyrant.I choose actions that are non violent I help people probably more then I should.But often when I walk way from confrontation, I don`t respect myself as Man.I then for months end up wishing I had kicked the living *** out of them.It is a real problem for me.I understand at some point in the forming of my psyche and experience maybe in this life and in previous lives I learned might is right.And I now have to for me painstaking unlearn that.The problem is the behavior I have linked to my identity and source of self.The issue I find is even when I do the right thing, I don`t respect myself as a man.I walk around feeling demasculated.

When we choose the actions we choose the consequence.I don`t wish to keep coming back for silly things..been their done that.However changing the self is not easy.For my own part I work on it daily.
By their deeds shall you know them.
J.C
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Re: Interesting talk with a sect

Post: # 12405Post ET-1 »

Good to read your response, thanks

'note the way I started to try and both justify and define my views .As though I needed to poof something to you.So all of the sudden I give my power over to you to judge as that is good or bad.So all of a sudden I need to play catch up. It`s very subtle but goes on a lot in life".

Indeed just be aware that you may be seeking to justify to maintain something or reject something biased on what you believe, to maintain what you believe. I say that we give our power to judge over to the reality, not to the other person, because I like to believe that what I believe is based on the reality and will correct any distortions based on the reality. We need to validate if what I claim to be happens to be or validate if what someone claims to be happens to be... well, actually we do not need to validate anything, its just better if we do it... for we may learn a thing or two...

We do have a clash of ideas... my intent is to show you something about the ideas each holds and for each to be enriched in the process... some people as you say just want to win even if it means embracing a delusion of being right when being wrong... I prefer to be right by recognizing when I am wrong and embracing what be right... instead of creating the illusion of being right... This sometimes creates a clash of ideas

cheers et
Rijzerlo
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Re: Interesting talk with a sect

Post: # 12406Post Rijzerlo »

This I find very interesting, as it is something I struggle with myself too. I try to be friendly to all and try not to see enemies. However when I reflect on what would happen if my family would be threatened, I would try to guard them with every ounce of life there would be in me, both physically and mentally.

Though this is a very primitive way of thinking, There is still a form of nobility about that way of thinking. But then we are pretty primitive.

To people who are pro-war and try to convince me it is a good thing to have a fighting force, I say the next thing and I dare anyone in the world to disagree:

"In the dictionary of a truly advanced, intellectual society the word War doesn't exist."

We can only be enlightened when we get clear of all the clutter that fills our minds daily, violence and aggressiveness being one of those mayor clutters. Though it is extremely difficult to keep a calm mind, especially afterwards (I sometimes think about years back too, as I have been challenged a few times, but have never purposely hit anyone), it is good to leave the past the past. Not resorting to violence is and always will be the wisest choice. Thinking back on it, I have been challenged, but never lost a fight. I am strong enough to face many opponents, but the furthest I ever got was putting someone on the ground and locking him until he got tired and got control of his anger. I can now look that person in the face with mutual respect. If I would have knocked him out, there wouldn't be that option, only fear or perhaps more anger.

I understand your difficulties all to well, but don't feel emasculated by it, on the contrary. You are as they say "The bigger man" for not resorting to anger. And if there is still a lot of energy bottled up inside, try a aggressive but fair sport to relax the senses.
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