Interesting talk with a sect

General discussion about the two books by Michel Desmarquet. Please ONLY post questions that do not fit in any of the available specialized forums.

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ET-1
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Re: Interesting talk with a sect

Post: # 12352Post ET-1 »

Does the level of love in a child, and those with down syndrome, be any less because of their levels of understanding?

BTW hope I had had, and had a blissful life, maybe willl be blissful in a time to come and maybe it will then last forevermore; from some perspective it may seem that in fact I have had a blissful life, and it even be that way, still how I feel at this moment is far from blissful. I know I am loved, sometimes I even feel it, right now I feel 'the world', and do not like what I feel at this time. The fact I, you, others are alive, to me reflects that God continues to lovingly sustains us. Without God's intervention we would cease to exists quite rapitdly.

Your statement "stick to the direct love produced by a communication between two equals" begs the question of the existence of equals. With unique singular individuals thats actually impossible, then again, we are equal in being unique singular individuals :-). This same idea can be expressed in the fact that all understanding levels are equal, for at any level there be infinite levels above and infinite levels below, still evidently each level also be singularly unique.

I hope you see that how you frame the experiences within learning understanding sort of determines how you perceive and experience stuff. Someone told me " Don't seek to understand her, just seek to love her"... of course that can apply to other stuff... I wonder if the Great Intellect picks out 'seeds', sending the bad ones to hell and the good one to heaven? To me it seems we all go to a good place to do good things... to the good ones its a blessing and to the bad ones its a curse. Akin to the one statement "I tell the truth" being true for those who say the truth and being a lie for those who say lies... Incongruence between what one claims and what be creates the deceptions. *** it may even be we be all happy only some are actually deceived to be unhappy.

I am glad you liked the sentence I sent in the previous post. To me its evident that those that enjoy, will enjoy, and enjoy to enjoying until they be deceived and learn to enjoy suffering instead of showing the suffering how to enjoy cultivating enjoying. Things get a bit more complicated when some insists other must do as they do instead of each doing what be better ( consciously learning what be better as well an intuitively just doing what be better).

I took a breack and feel much better now...

cheers et
Rijzerlo
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Re: Interesting talk with a sect

Post: # 12354Post Rijzerlo »

i've been out a few days, my apologies.

As a matter of fact I do believe that children with down syndrome have a different level of giving love, though this might sound cruel.

When I went to the gym the other day, I had the privilege to observe these people as they were working out there too. There was one person there who definitely caught my attention, as he was shouting various "rude words" at all girls there in the gym, hitting every man close enough to his parameter, only to acknowledge the affection of his tutor when told not to shout at such an inappropriate manner. hugs were exchanged between tutor and 'student'.

These people, as fit their profile, give and perceive love, but do not know where it comes from or how to put it in its rightful place.

In other words; it takes intelligence to understand and comprehend love and its existence. One who does not know and understand love, doesn't comprehend how to distribute it in its most effective way. Although one perceives and distributes love, that does not mean one has even the slightest understanding of why love is there in the first place.

Love is all around us, true, but only truly intellectual minds seek Why it is there. Not just because it is told by some book, or it is by prophecy, but why it is there in the logical sense. They might find that there is a pretty logical link between love they give and perceive and the Great Intellect (God)

To summarize: Love of an infant with down syndrome is in basic (instinctive) principle not differently than any other person in the entire Universe, only the understanding of love itself seems to be missing in perspective to 'ordinary' individuals

p.s. "equal individuals" is accounted to their respective co-individuals, not their source. We are absolute and autonomous individuals with unlimited Freedom of Choice, but are all the same in doing so.
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Re: Interesting talk with a sect

Post: # 12355Post ET-1 »

Thanks for sharing with us that you been away, glad you are back. I find there be no need to apologize... Understand that you have reasons for doing and not doing what you choose and even be at times unable to respond for whatever reason. We are absolute and autonomous individuals with certain freedoms of choice as related to our understandings and situations. Learning can help each expand what they can go, even if that means comprehending a thing or two more. My latest insights have come from realizing that what one claims projects what one holds and that what one perceives stem from what others projected and what be hold... I sort of sought to focus this tread and some of what you have said reflecting it back. Sometimes we just have to observe something to get it just right.

cheers et
Rijzerlo
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Re: Interesting talk with a sect

Post: # 12356Post Rijzerlo »

Those latest insights are indeed true, but (assuming I interpret them rightfully) it only applies to those who aren't able to understand properly, or are at the beginning of awakening. When given a greater perspective about the concept of our Universe, what is projected by others is either filtered out, or taken in account to what is already observable from Nature and the Universe itself, both physical and spiritual. Those observable facts are also the basics for filtering, thus what is projected by others is always filtered anyway.

When one says electrons are fluctuations in light, one is able to prove it and that is considered truth. When one says electrons are information processors, one will be able to prove it too and it is considered truth. Most will choose one of either, until someone comes along, claiming it is both. That person being intelligent enough to perceive a larger part of the concept of the Universe.

What can be concluded here (and I believe that is what you already claim partly?) is that we can indeed learn from observing others, but shouldn't just consider everything that is projected by others as viable information in order to grow. Decent filtering has a huge positive effect on ones psyche and calmness in ones mind. I speak from personal experience, it has helped me along for quite a while now. But that being said, even 'bad' information can be considered 'good' as we will always learn something from it, it's all about contrast.
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Re: Interesting talk with a sect

Post: # 12357Post ET-1 »

IF 'its all about contrast' THEN let us focus on the contrast of that claim... :-)

Framed as a question; Please tell us what be the contrast to the claim 'its all about contrast'? Your statement reminds me of the relativist who asserts that "there is no absolute truth" instead of actually being congruent and making a relativistic claim. It sort of amuses me :-). how the relativist will deny being a relativist by accepting the absolutist way and by rejecting the absolutist way. I see something similar taking place in the idea of the contrast of its all about contrast... which points to the fact that its about something else :-).

I wonder what you mean by 'filtering'. Evidently, I do have some idea what you mean, still I wonder if the idea I have corresponds to the idea that you have. More precisely how they correspond to each other. To me the filter needs to transmute the stuff instead of simply separate it. At one time I envisioned having a surrounding protecting armor, which 'keept me safe' by keeping stuff out, then I learned that the protection needed to be permeable and allow the good stuff to pass... then I realized that the filter ought to allow everything to pass while 'enriching it' (making it good through a transmutation).

An important insight from this whole interaction to me centers on realizing that what one perceives stem from 1- what others projected and 2- what we hold... (sorry for the typo in the previous post). Evidently what one claims projects what one holds. We each choose consciously or unconsciously to hold stuff and project stuff. I sort of been seeking abilities for how best to present an idea when the idea will be rejected because of what be held. To learn the better ways to communicate stuff and the better ways to understand stuff. Thanks for this opportunity. I have enjoyed it quite a bit. Hope we continues it further, though sense its winding down.

Cheers et
Rijzerlo
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Re: Interesting talk with a sect

Post: # 12360Post Rijzerlo »

Well then, let's put some more steam into the conversation :)

Communication is one of the most difficult things to do in this lifetime, simply because we are all individual intellects with unlimited potential and no-one can look inside our heads to see which part of conversation triggers which emotion. We can only achieve clarity by 'riding the ride'.

With filtering I mean seperating, not transmuting. When transmuting, we face the risk of losing grip on reality. My filter includes the one displayed in Tom Chalko's "The Freedom of Choice", it contains:

1. Does it contravene the Universal Law in any way? (which I often compare to the ten commandments)
2. Does it prohibit Freedom of Choice or Thought in any way?

When I spoke with the woman from the sect (originally the topic on this thread ;)) I kept my filter on, discovering that she is only open to those who follow her, but rejects any who display a different concept. Thus she prohibited my freedom of choice, therefore explaining she has no more intelligent than the next truckdriver, exclaiming that pollution and global warming are hocus.

This filter, when practiced well enough is extremely powerful and effective. It keeps my mind clear :)
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Re: Interesting talk with a sect

Post: # 12362Post ET-1 »

Rijzerlo,

My original 'challenge' questioned whether your filter keeps your mind clear, as you claim, whether it rejects any who displays a different concept (within a seductive delusion of working to maintaining a clear mind) ?

Are you open to consider 'challenges'? Will you embrace or reject a different concept?

Thanks for clarifying what you meant by filtering. It confirms what I thought you meant, and the process provides other ideas that may put more steam into the conversation. Yes when transmuting we face the risk of losing grip on reality, just as we embrace the opportunity of discovering a better reality. Sometimes we think we have a grip on reality and get it right when in fact we just think we get it and in fact don't. Dyslexia is a funny companion, twisting stuff under a seductive delusion of getting it just right, that can at times twist the twisted just right to get it righter at the fundamental truth. In communications, I can say it wrong, you can get it wrong, and we can end up actually communicating!

I wonder if she prohibited your freedom of choice. Maybe she just choose to assert her freedom of choice which you considered prohibited your freedom of choice. Lately I have been tending towards the idea that some certain possibilities need to remain possibilities forevermore. That the truth holds the right to silence (prohibit) slanderous opinions. Sure the slanderous keep the freedom to say whatever they please while taking the full responsibilities involved.

Have to go... hold there is much in here to stimulate this conversation further :-)

cheers et
Rijzerlo
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Re: Interesting talk with a sect

Post: # 12363Post Rijzerlo »

Great to take dyslexia as an example. It shows pretty well what you try to explain, and indeed, when one is faced with moments that take you out of comfort zone, like a miscommunication indeed, it should trigger creativity more easily to come up with a different solution. I would like to point out that again there is contrast:
We usually have our standard conversation pattern, until something as simple as a typo averts from this so-called standard pattern completely and calls for us to access a different part of thoughts to come up with suitable response which can lead to exiting (or not) new topics. Only when shown a different option, solution or event (contrast) are we able to make better use of our creativity and intelligence. Providing of course one is intelligent enough to make such a switch.

She did prohibit when giving me the following statement: Our way is the only way and if you do not follow us, you will be excluded and end up in Hell. While I am free spirited enough to come up with a better solution (that woman is a danger for society, there is no Hell, this is only a product designed by false propaganda in order to keep control over the flock), she uses fear to promote her 'campaign'. Thus many will fall for her so-called message in fear of being excluded. Although the choice is always there, those who are limited in there intelligence will take her "choice" as a done deal. Either we follow her, or we die horrifically and will burn for eternity.

See how at the surface this might seem like a choice, while underneath there is absolutely no option at all? "Either follow me or be doomed". It was only when I showed absolutely no interest in joining her sect, a pleasant exchange of visions became work to get rid of me as soon as possible.

I think you are definitely on the right track when saying choices should remain choices forever. Only when we have choices, will we able to see consequences, only when we have choices, will we be able to see contrasts. When read TP you find that it is explained many times that everyone has unlimited potential and the Freedom to do whatever that person chooses. All choices will have to keep existing, for our intellect be able to exist.

Slanderous people can teach us very well why being slanderous usually comes with it's own consequences.
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Re: Interesting talk with a sect

Post: # 12364Post ET-1 »

My standard conversation pattern, involves the unusual task of actually validating if what I perceive happens to corresponds to what be. Seems to me that most assume they get it just right without actually validating stuff. I have even been in dialogues where I observe how the other has yet to understand what I stated and still the other claims "I do not understand what you said but I know You are wrong". What I find amusing is the evident logical contradiction involved and the fact that they be evaluating what they think I said instead of what I said. In order for them to evaluate what I claim they have to first understand what I claim and to do that they first have to get it right.

I read what you posted about the woman with a little twist: The TRUTH is the only way to know The TRUTH and if you do not follow The TRUTH, you will be excluded from The TRUTH and end up lost in lies and deceived. Weather the woman actually knows the truth or not is a whole different matter. BTW again you assert something you believe and use to substantiate what you hold. How do you know that there is no hell? How do you know that hell is only a product designed by false propaganda in order to keep control over the flock? To me the belief that there is no hell nor evil stems from an evil tactic to deceive and seduce individuals into hell and evil ways. If you want we can get into the nitty gritty beliefs involved, though my intention has been to just draw attention to what be going on the talk as we jointly explore it. I believe that to know The TRUTH there be absolutely only one option, and thus 'underneath there is absolutely no option at all', we accept the truth as the truth or end up ignorant of the truth. BTW we may be able to see consequence, contrast and other stuff when we have choices and when we lack choices. Yes we have unlimited potential and the Freedom to do whatever we choose, usually tangled with reaping what we sow, and so its best to never do certain things and its best to keep from certain actions while cultivating the better ways.

I wonder if all choices will have to keep existing? Maybe its best we choose now to have some of those choices cease to exist and remain as mere possibilities that will never be thought of nor considered ever again. Lets just have the good alternatives exist.

BTW I hold that heaven and hell exists and in fact be the same perfect place, where only good things be done. The bad are perfectly bad, doing badly the bad things, and thus ending doing only good things. The good are perfectly good, doing goodly the good things and thus ending doing only good things. To the good doing good is a divine reward, while to the bad doing good is a terrible punishment. So it is that "May you reap in abundance what you sow" be a curse and a blessing. I prefer to state "May each reap in abundance divine love, understanding, wisdom as they sow divine love, understanding, wisdom".

Cheers et
Rijzerlo
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Re: Interesting talk with a sect

Post: # 12371Post Rijzerlo »

Yes, considering truths, there are in fact many truths which can be considered 'One truth'. My knowledge is that every truth can be divided into many different parts, the example of an electron:

If one searches for it to be an object of light, that person will eventually succeed in giving evidence that it is in fact light. When one searches for it to be a wave, that person will also succeed in giving evidence in that matter. Only when considering it is both light and a wave (light is actually a wave, which is actually a vibration) that person finds the higher truth: electrons and every other particle for that matter is a vibration.

You explain very well that truth is only as truthfully as the range of intellect that person carries at that moment in time and space. It is indeed fascinating how far we can go towards that one truth, which of course becomes more and more difficult as with each part uncovered, more questions can be raised.

The reason why I (think) I know that there is no Hell is because the universe isn't designed to put individuals in everlasting agony and pain, burn for eternity. The fact that 'believers' actually think it is existent is a clear evidence of the massive ignorance that is 'faith' or 'religion'. Perhaps I should clarify that the woman indeed spoke of this stereotype 'Hell', the one described in so many fairytales.
The hell you speak of, and heaven, are just the place where we exist right now. And indeed I do believe that if giving definition to Hell, our planet would be that. As long as war, materialism and exploitation exists, our planet will remain 'planet of sorrows'.

You last definition I have to disagree on I'm afraid. Although it would be nice if each individual indeed does reap in abundance of divine love, understanding and wisdom, that simply isn't the case right now. There are to many brainwashed or plain *** walking around on this planet with a complete disrespect to every aspect of universal law and the nature they live in. We indeed 'reap in abundance what we sow'. Let Japan be a good example to that and the upcoming disasters after it.

The question if all choices have to keep existing is an absolute as well. When discarded a few choices, how can we ever learn from them? When, for example, we discard the possibility to kill, how will we ever learn the impact killing has on relatives, close ones or perhaps well-being. If we weren't able to 'kill' nature, then how do you think our world would look? exploitation could only grow. There would be no contrast and therefore no learning opportunities about the way the Universe works and why would we then even bother learning? We would remain stupid forevermore. Thus there would be no possibility of ever evolving into a more intelligent human being. As with all things, when they stop evolving, the will seize to exist. It would mean the certain end of us, not just physical.
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Re: Interesting talk with a sect

Post: # 12372Post ET-1 »

Liked what you sort of said :
- that person will eventually succeed in giving evidence that it is in fact this or that.
Question remains how does one actually know it is this or that?

Indeed, 'the universe isn't designed to put individuals in everlasting agony and pain, burn for eternity', it be individuals who choose to put individuals in everlasting agony and pain instead of choosing something better. FWIIW The fact that 'believers' actually think it is existent is a clear evidence of ... this or that! Maybe its time to finds the higher truth: elements!

Note you introduced the notion of discarded a few choices, rather than maintain and keep all possibilities while only exploring some of them... how can we ever learn from abstinence? The example you use of the possibility to kill, tweaked a bit, serves as an excellent one. Will we ever learn the impact of killing oneself if we actually kill ourselves? How will we ever learn the impact the killing has if we no longer be? As you mention, exploitation could only grow. That is UNTIL individuals choose to stop the exploitation by caring cultivation of caring cultivation. I used to wonder about the question 'how does one get the bully not to be a bully without bulling them"? I found two alternatives, 1- not play with them 2- Play 'Jujutsu' style with them... while also dancing and doing other games. The exercises, moves and, dances will be enriching to each :-)

BTW the idea that to learn we need contrast needs a contrasting idea to realize the better way to learn. (I look forward to your response to this particular notion. Hope that you explicitly respond and explain what is the contrasting idea to the notion we need contrast to learn.) You ask why would we then even bother learning if there where no contrasting idea? Well because its fun, entertaining, and other divine stuff.

NOTE that one possibility is that 'We would remain stupid forevermore. Thus there would be no possibility of ever evolving into a more intelligent human being'. Substitute 'deceived', 'ignorant', 'exploited', 'enslaved' for 'stupid' and statement remains basically the same. I would say that its self evident that these possibilities need to remain just possibilities :-) as we evolve into more intelligent human beings :-) exploring only certain possibilities worth exploring.

I desire to point out that non-evolving stuff can continue to exists without necessarily meaning the certain end of us, just not quite sure how to frame it just right. When we attain perfection we can stop evolving and continue to exists forevermore while certain that we will always be in a perfect state of being forevermore and continue growing more perfection.

Cheers
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shezmear
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Re: Interesting talk with a sect

Post: # 12376Post shezmear »

Rijzerlo wrote:I had a very inspiring talk with a sect today. They live close by (I never
knew!) and have a certain doomsday vision given to them by God.

The funny thing is that they have a pretty accurate prescription about
certain events, yet they use a very narrow point of view. She said she had
a prophecy from God (Higher Self, which I couldn't explain to her). I used
my knowledge of the eccentricity of the semi-solid core, the encounter of
solar flares (example febr. and Japan) and the fact that there are huge
flames predicted in 2012 due to shifting of the poles on the sun. Which
could explain the fact that birds are falling from the sky and wales flush on
land.

They definitely adopted the technological side of the story, but called me
a messenger from Satan for my point of view on the world and humanity. It's
a shame but they think that Joshua (Jesus) will come again and relief
ourselves from our sins by ruling over us in Jerusalem as we are then relieved from
our sins. When I told them it's less dangerous to explode a
nuclear bomb in your hands than to wait for something to happen, she
(leader) closed of and I couldn't reach them anymore. A shame, but of
course they have their own Freedom to choose their own knowledge.

Anyone else had a encounter with such people and how was it? I actually
have to laugh from being called a messenger from Satan. Proves to me that
they have a very limited knowledge and aren't able to comprehend any other
form of truth.



The thing with sects, is that it's hard to fathom what you actually dealing with, until you whiteness it. It's all funny cutzy till you see what people are capable of. It's not to be underestimated.

I recently had the luxury of witnessing on video the burning and torture of 2 human beings because they were either caught doing voodoo or thought to be witches.

Once I had recovered from my utter shock, disguise and horror and nearly fainting. I rationalise that I had witnessed a new kind of low. But it was not just low is was how far people can go for a belief system. I witnessed another girl getting stoned in the street. The crowd gathered around with mobile phones in hand, kicked and beat her , throwing besa bricks on her head. The street was filled with people just milling around, watching. They watched from roof tops, some joined in. Some looked just plain board like you watch a street performer. Evidently she had pissed someone off or done something dare I say "taboo".I sat down and thought, this means something. This is the what happens when.......(fill in the blank).....

Both of these had their roots in some sort of religious frame work.It`s so twisted and bizarre that one can only stand back or pull away from it like a horrid smell.

When I was in a cult I got to see it from the inside, but also myself from the inside, why was I there?, why were other people there?

You know you wont grow a chicken in an egg unless you keep the room the right temperer? the eggs do not gestate. You wont grow plants unless you provide the right environment. You can't join a sect unless you have certain things going on with in your psyche.

(a) You need to be lost, well very lost
(b) They provide a solution and a clan or tribe which bring relief
(c) They give you meaning and a purpose which you may not be getting from anyone else.
Lately I have come to realise the power of environment, these was brought to attention my Jacque Fresco. Environment is 80% of who we are for most of us.
There are billions of people with a hole in their understanding of what life is. Which creates a spiritual yearning. They arrive here and they have no idea what they hell is going. Some don't care, some stay occupied, and others join sects, religions, cults, anything to deal with the feelings, to give purpose , to give meaning to their life.

Cult and sects will always exist on these sorts of planets. why? because the psyche is still to undeveloped and people will always search for meaning. They eventuality fall in a pit till they dig themselves out.

If you look at this documentary you can see how people arrive at believe system... http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/return-t ... h-children
By their deeds shall you know them.
J.C
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shezmear
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Re: Interesting talk with a sect

Post: # 12377Post shezmear »

Sorry about my awful spelling and grammar...
By their deeds shall you know them.
J.C
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Re: Interesting talk with a sect

Post: # 12378Post ET-1 »

Curiously I rarely see the spelling and grammar errors... to me the messengers used isn't as important as the actual message... that is the words used isn't as important as the intended message ... I like to consider that one does not just judge the book by its cover, one judges the book by its content... which incidentally involves the whole book ... quite a bit more than just the cover... I hold that to fathom what we actually dealing with here involves dealing with beliefs and manipulation of these to fit certain ends. I like the notion that given the right environment certain things will flourish. I also like the notion that each one, to a certain extents, creates the environment around them. How people arrive and maintain belief systems is an interesting topic to me. I did go to the link and only read the comments of the video. I believe that suffices for the time being and to ponder and wonder what it takes to develop meaningful Beliefs, purposes, ways in individual lives. Of course if need be will further explore what you point to.

BTW understanding of what life is may have little to do with the experiences of and in life. Instead of challenging the notion that cults and sects will always exists on these sort of planets I would rather challenge how to wisely choose, cultivate and develop such cults and sects... to ensure healthy beings all over. If we are bound to believe (and think and feel) while free to choose the thoughts and masters we better be wise as to how we choose, cultivate and develop such ideas. What's more, do it in such a way as to get everyone involved... whether they want it or not... Just like science and the truth it does not depend on whether the scientist want it or not it depends on what happens to be.

Cheers et
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Rezo
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Re: Interesting talk with a sect

Post: # 12381Post Rezo »

this documentary is simply shocking in what it reveals. whoa
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