Thinking too far?

General discussion about the two books by Michel Desmarquet. Please ONLY post questions that do not fit in any of the available specialized forums.

Moderator: Moderators

Thinking too far?

Postby Rijzerlo on Wed May 25, 2011 9:11 pm

Lately I've had numerous discussions with my father over the concept Tom and Michel are presenting. Where I believe most of these matters, my father has the urge to disagree with every other idea that is new to him, creating doubt about every subject.

When for example trying to explain the reason for this Universe to be created and the start of everything as told by Tom, there is immediately a comment in the liking of: "And before that?"

So I keep bending backwards and forwards about the length we should be looking back at. Maybe we are thinking too difficult here? Is the matter as it is and no further than that? Or is there much more to explore after every door we open (I do believe this to be true, since our Universe expands so much and has been repeated for a number we perhaps can't even imagine)

At what level can someone truly be satisfied with the knowledge that is given to him. Besides the fact that it is good to try and look beyond, to what factor do we need to raise questions? I am a fairly positive and easily trusting person, but my father is quite the opposite. How to satisfy someone so irrational about his own doubts? I feel I keep going in loops when trying to explain to such an doubtful person?

And a very ugly question I keep hearing is: "And if, so what?"

How to respond respectfully to such a question? (up till now I just let people with that response in their value and do not continue discussions)

Anyone got any good comments on this?
Rijzerlo
 
Posts: 52
Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2011 4:32 pm

Re: Thinking too far?

Postby ronald on Wed May 25, 2011 10:04 pm

I think you have chosen a good father ;) He too is helping you think more than you think, but maybe unconsciously lol.

I would try to find a way to repose questions at the right time, while each time relying on my intuition to check when either the time is right to ask or discuss a topic. If you feel a step back needs to be taken in this process, you'd be probably right to build in some pauses. Besides that, I would continue to search for logical explanations and also hook the topics back to earthly experiences and stories. I try my best to make sure I pass the point of believe (into knowledge) myself first before setting up a discussion. Keeping an element of humor is also a fine method of keeping things light regarding serious topics.

I would perhaps also pose that I'm just searching for more information and wisdom on these topics, kind of like a hobby ;)

We are not thinking to difficult, nor too much. Don't be fooled :) we are thinking possibilities in accordance to the laws of existence for the purpose of spiritual development. From that point of view, this experience should be a nice challenge.
Lol, who is going to say that spiritual development doesn't exist.

Trying to raise questions to the ultimate of your imagination is an exciting thing to do.

"And if, so what?" ..ok, so what if you die and thereafter discover it all turns out to be fairly important that you missed it.
You would regret not being more open minded, even wish to come back as a son of your son ;)

What existed and evolved before the universe came into being can be verified by oneself. "And before that?" is a good question but it would be extremely lazy to ask someone else to explain and proof it. One has to answer these things for oneself. If someone is unwilling to do some self exploration and studying, these topics can logically not be answered.

Someone can truly be satisfied with knowledge once it is lived into wisdom. In other words, acting with that knowledge in accordance to the natural law. To be honest with my tiny grain of knowledge, I miserably fail on the acting part each time, thus I'm not truly satisfied yet. But I'm not giving up :sunny:
User avatar
ronald
 
Posts: 342
Joined: Tue Jul 11, 2006 12:00 pm
Location: 日本(Japan)

Re: Thinking too far?

Postby Rijzerlo on Thu May 26, 2011 10:11 am

Ah yes, but giving up is of course not an option if you want to keep on going forward, so neither will I :wink:

But ignorance is one of the main reasons right now, why we keep destroying nature and fail to acting accordingly for that matter. I myself fail also, but it is mainly because I want to see how things will turn out in the next year (few years). Probably we will finally see physical results of all our selfish acts uptill now.

This is why we aren't able to explain these matters to "blind" people in the first place. They keep being ignorant and even if there is some thought about our abuse, it is easily waved away when something more easy or comfortable comes along. I try to provide easy-to-swallow examples but these seem to only have a limited effect. My opinion is that it is safe to say that humanity is lost, with no bright forseable future thusfar.

And when physical examples are provided, we, ignorant as we are, will fall into the next array of misinformation and false propoganda by *** who try to make themselves prophets, or try to create profit.

As negative as I might sound right now, I am actually not. I just see a lost cause for the next decade or so (ok, perhaps a little negative). I only hope that Earth is preserved and those left inhabiting have some sort of clue about the truth. I don't see any sign of that yet unfortunately.

That's why we perhaps shouldn't think too far for other people and provide a much easier fundament for truth. But where's the limit?
Rijzerlo
 
Posts: 52
Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2011 4:32 pm

Re: Thinking too far?

Postby ronald on Thu May 26, 2011 10:05 pm

I second that.
There's a lot to be learned and a lot to be done while living in a chaos society, #-o I mean civilized society.

p 79.
a kindergarten with the emphasis on teaching basic social values


I try to focus on the basic social values, which is I guess, a chapter in itself.
Ghandi comes to my mind.
User avatar
ronald
 
Posts: 342
Joined: Tue Jul 11, 2006 12:00 pm
Location: 日本(Japan)

Re: Thinking too far?

Postby ET-1 on Fri May 27, 2011 12:05 am

Rijzerlo,

Would like to comment before reading the other responses. Maybe will add some notes later.

"And if, so what?" seems like a fair question to ponder and wonder. Most do as you do, drop the dialogue instead of taking the opportunity to explore 'deeper'. What if this all be a highly advanced simulation 'game' that we believed to be real? There are some si-fi movies that explore this concept. Your mention of 'doubt', reminds me of the advice given in the thread related to talking to cult member but instead of using 'doubt' I prefer to use wonder and ponder because when we wonder and ponder we seek out new insights to better understand stuff. I even believe that belonging to 'the right cult', can make all the difference in ones life. (evidently belonging to 'the wrong cult' can be quite dangerous.

You aks : At what level can someone truly be satisfied with the knowledge that is given to him?

Well at any level... its possible to be satisfied and unsatisfied. The ignorant may well be quite satisfied and contempt with the knowledge that they hold, they may even be quite happy and at peace. Some stuff is just better not to know at all.

You aks : to what factor do we need to raise questions?

Do we actually have a need to raise questions at all? Maybe its more something we like to do to see what happens. Maybe your dad likes seeing you bending backwards and forwards :-)

You aks : How to satisfy someone so irrational about his own doubts?

By questioning them about their own doubts? by inviting them to wonder and ponder about certain stuff which leads to the realization of certain stuff... if what we believe affects in part what we experience, as it likely does, then doubting keeps us from certain experiences whereas wonder and ponder about certain stuff leads to certain experiences .

I too feel, and observe how "I keep going in loops when trying to explain to ..." others what I feel, think, believe, know, experience... at least its a learning experience... :-)

Personally I believe others may be technologically advanced and still just like us. They may even have more burdens to deal with than we do. Maybe to wonder and ponder the meaning of life be the key, BTW FWIIW even if one knows something one can still wonder and ponder about it... and delight in discovering something more about it. Hope you find this useful


Cheers et
User avatar
ET-1
 
Posts: 91
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 8:46 pm

Re: Thinking too far?

Postby ET-1 on Fri May 27, 2011 12:18 am

ronald,

Chaos I read somewhere denotes a higher order... it seems that anarchistic people be more in tune with the present ways of things. I believe that one voice of truth, wisdom, compassion can redeem and save humanity ... of course when individuals choose to listen to that voice of truth wisdom compassion and abide by what it states...

cheers et
User avatar
ET-1
 
Posts: 91
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 8:46 pm

Re: Thinking too far?

Postby Rijzerlo on Fri May 27, 2011 9:18 am

Ah that I like, I've been asking myself that same question too:

There were other "civilized" people on this planet, like Mu. Even exploring technologies most cannot even dream to consider. But still we remain a "planet of sorrow" as that civilization was destroyed, just like ours might in perhaps the nearby future. So when moving up a category, away from a planet of sorrow, how would that next type of civilization look like? My guess more in tune with own spiritual alignment accordingly to nature, as that is what we are practicing on this "Playground".

About the level of knowledge, I know many who are completely contempt with their current level of understanding, not seeking to go past a certain picture or idea. The question is, should we try to invoke these people to look further? I try, because I feel it is a certain plight we have to help others, but it seems that we will not succeed in trying to get enough people to start thinking for themselves. To much distraction.

With an interesting discussion with Tom, the conclusion was: The world will not be destroyed if there is a reason not to destroy it. This reason being enough people who are able to give up modernday comforts and start living more in tune with nature in their surroundings. We also concluded that this will not happen unless something radically changes (cataclysm).

One things for sure, the next period will be very interesting.
Rijzerlo
 
Posts: 52
Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2011 4:32 pm

Re: Thinking too far?

Postby ronald on Fri May 27, 2011 10:12 am

ET-1, I think so as well.
Rijzerlo, I do like invokes via teasing others (gently) and be teased myself, lol. It is a fun way of evolving.
User avatar
ronald
 
Posts: 342
Joined: Tue Jul 11, 2006 12:00 pm
Location: 日本(Japan)

Re: Thinking too far?

Postby ET-1 on Fri May 27, 2011 6:02 pm

Rijzerlo,

There is a reason NOT to destroy the world, there be a reason to keep the world.... that being said, one individual can make the difference... for good or for bad... question is what will each individual choose and which way will the difference go towards. Should one individual 'ruin it' for the rest? what if that sole individual wants to ruin the ruining of the world? In a more positive frame, should one individual action serve to save the rest? Evidently each individual action matters, as each individual learns to behave and play nice (avoiding deadly sins).

You ask: Should we invoke these people to look further?

Well that sort of depends on what we want them to look into.

cheers et
User avatar
ET-1
 
Posts: 91
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 8:46 pm

Re: Thinking too far?

Postby Rijzerlo on Sun May 29, 2011 2:26 am

Thank you ET, that's exactly what I was aiming for when beginning this thread. Somebody ruining the ruin of earth. In my mind this is absolutely thinking to far and creating new doorways which will turn towards the same result eventually. Not to sound negative, because these at this moment in time and space invoke me to think beyond. When thinking about this way of thinking my thoughts actually get strangled within their own net of thinking :lol:

In my opinion, every person who believes the earth will remain because there is no reason for it to be destroyed shows great signs of ignorance about the way the universe works through our normal-day observability,

Take a colon of rabbits for example. If they grow too large, a disease or new predator will come along to thin out the population.

But what if this population is too intelligent and able to create certain (temporary) measurements to control this natural flow? We get overpopulation and destruction of property (nature).

Thats why my thoughts bend towards saving the earth? For who? The next terrible politic assembly? the next criminal? the next murderer?

The earth can only be saved when it is worth saving and indeed it can be saved by a single thought. However, in present-day society, this single though will be thrown to the curb and stepped on. Humanity is way too ignorant
Rijzerlo
 
Posts: 52
Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2011 4:32 pm

Re: Thinking too far?

Postby ET-1 on Sun May 29, 2011 3:59 pm

Rijzerlo,

In YOUR mind... these thoughts get strangled within their own net of thinking ... thus let death die once and for all while life lives on... there be a reason to keep the world.... and ensure that saved earth lead to only good things existing. The earth should be saved, by all, for the good people good. Indeed in present-day society the saving thought may well be thrown to the curb and stepped on, may that seed grow there to shade, feed and enable the travelers on the road a divine journey.

Note the subtle chosen biases... in the posts. BTW realize how some species can cultivate and build symbiotic coexistences which produces and allows the existence and propagation of the ecosystem by eating the fruits and spreading the seeds. Where I live there is a wild hot pepper plant that actually requires that some bird eat it the fruit, that the seeds pass through its digestive system and then be dropped somewhere for the seeds to germinate and give life to a new plant?

In my opinion, every person who believes the earth will remain because there is a reason for it to be shows great signs of understanding about the way the universe works through our normal-day observability, Now If each could help make this a better place for themselves and others the earth would become a paradise.

BTW The example of predatory cancerous opportunistic organisms that just destroy the property they live upon is in stark contrast to examples of symbiotic relationships that feed of the fruits produced and help each other be... Man can help corn grow just as corn can help man grow... Plants breed out and bread in what men breeds in and breads out creating a sustainable cycle... If they grow too large, they enable us to grow too large,,, no need for a disease or new predator to exist nor come along to thin out the population.

The natural flow is to grow? When the population surpasses certain level it needs to expand and cultivate new spaces... the universe is quite vast you know... and people out there should know about the troubles down here and their solutions helps push towards a better place... there and here.

Thats why my thoughts bend towards saving the earth? and transforming 'the reapers' into complete caring cultivators. Still some beings in some places think that they are too far and distant to help resolve the local situations. When are they going to realize that what happens here has an effect there and the other way around?

cheers et
User avatar
ET-1
 
Posts: 91
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 8:46 pm

Re: Thinking too far?

Postby Rijzerlo on Sun May 29, 2011 9:48 pm

Well sure, one man can grow seed to produce plant in order to eat it to create energy and waist for further plants to grow, everybody happy.

However there is no denying that this is absolutely not the present-day case. Humans are dead set on making profit and more profit. Thereby exploiting every possible recourse. In this current state our population is estimated to grow towards 10 billion before this century is over. Whilst we are already overcrowding the planet.

And I wouldn't consider myself a reaper, I just want to press people on the facts. Maybe some will wake up, most will probably not. There is no money to be earned in a self-substainable life. And lazy people do not want to give up their current comfort in order to preserve the planet. All signs of ignorance, ignorance and more ignorance. Saying there is no need to change because the planet will remain anyway is indeed also signs of... ignorance.

We can preserve the planet if there is a reason for it to be preserved. While keeping up our current way of life, we collectively contribute in the destruction of the entire human race. But I guess we will only believe when we experience it physically first. Lets just sit back and wait for the result of our "modern" society. Meanwhile volcano's on Iceland begin to become more active again, while in other places in Europe there are earthquakes who aren't common at all.

At least we will all have front-row seats to see the show we have created ourselves
Rijzerlo
 
Posts: 52
Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2011 4:32 pm

Re: Thinking too far?

Postby ronald on Mon May 30, 2011 12:41 pm

In the words of Deek Jackson:
and now for the weather - The planets f***ed, it's your fault and it's getting worse. Have a nice weekend!
User avatar
ronald
 
Posts: 342
Joined: Tue Jul 11, 2006 12:00 pm
Location: 日本(Japan)

Re: Thinking too far?

Postby ET-1 on Mon May 30, 2011 3:36 pm

Rijzerlo wrote: There is no money to be earned in a self-substainable life.


Actually if we take a closer look at it... its the other way around... The money to be earned in a self-sustainable life ( business ) is actually infinite... whatever the amount desired, its just a matter of time to get it. Unfortunately the present economic models seem set on scarce resources rather than abundant ones. *** even abundant resources are artificially converted into scarce ones by 'the law' instead of developing innovative economic models required to capitalize abundance. Intellectual property rights and piracy laws to mention two such examples.

Indeed some humans are set on exploiting 'others' and some humans are set on cultivating 'others'. I had a professor who mentioned that its been said that the world can't feed the growing population and yet innovations have appeared to enable to feed the growing population. I recall that some patent officer claimed that there was nothing new to be invented over 60 years ago... yea right!

In a humorous tone : Indeed "Saying there is no need to change because the planet will remain anyway is indeed also signs of... ignorance"... so why did you state it? :eye:

Please note that "transforming 'the reapers' into complete caring cultivators" meant transforming the exploiters ways into caring cultivators ways. To use a biblical story the hunter needs to change into a cultivator instead of killing the cultivator. it seems we have evolved from Hunters to farmers to industrialization to services to knowledge while still maintaining the hunters mentality! Its time to cultivate knowledge, services, industries, fields wisely! When you mentioned ' I wouldn't consider myself a reaper' I considered how you induced me to consider the possibility of you as a reaper! Quick don't think of an apple... What did you just think, and then sought to not think off? while still thinking about it! Rest assured that when I mentioned "transforming 'the reapers' into complete caring cultivators" I was pointing to something without considering if it was particularly applicable to you, others, including me. As you sort of implied and sort of agreed there be a need for changing and making 'the exploiters' become complete caring cultivators.

When are WE going to realize that what happens here has an effect there and the other way around? Maybe focusing on the reasons to preserve the planet and working to preserve the planet by incorporating and inducing others to incorporate the changes to save the planet is part of the lessons we need to learn now. If a single thought can save and/or destroy the planet we need to ensure that it be saved rather than the alternative. "While keeping up our current way of life, we collectively contribute in the destruction of the entire human race" assumes our current way of life leads to the destruction of the entire human race rather than embracing that our current way of life inevitably leads to the cultivation and enrichment of the entire human race thought the enrichment of each and all. Maybe the volcanos, elenir comet , weather anomalies stem from a belief fixation on such things brought about by implanted thoughts of such things. Just imagine if the experience stems in part from what individuals choose to believe and individuals 'choose' to believe that their beliefs have no say and are at the mercy of what happens because 'others', 'science' says so! Personally I believe that much of the present havoc stems from giving up certain beliefs and practices while allowing other alternatives dominance instead of insuring that certain beliefs and practices direct each and everyones actions.

Its seems quite absurd to question that unless one embraces the way of the truth one remains ignorant of the truth, likewise it seems to me quite evident that those who reject the way of God remains lost while thinking to be saved. Quite absurd to disbelieve instead of to believe when what one believes impacts what be experienced. I been wondering in regards to how the truth holds the right to constrain the slanderous ways and the ways of ensuring that only the truth direct the way forward. That is the authority to judge someone this or that stems form this or that not what the authority chooses to hold, claim. The judge who judges on what they choose to hold rather than what be the case, better know what they be getting into and ensure they be cultivating something good, for for in dew time abundant fruits will stem forth.

Cheers et
User avatar
ET-1
 
Posts: 91
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 8:46 pm

Re: Thinking too far?

Postby Rijzerlo on Mon May 30, 2011 10:05 pm

Great link! And so true.

Especially about war, and then too think there are still so many who think that killing for peace is the right thing to do. It actually contradicts this thread, thinking too closely...little :-k (or not thinking at all)
Rijzerlo
 
Posts: 52
Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2011 4:32 pm

Next

Return to General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 1 guest

cron