The Error of Suicide

[Lena]

Perhaps when some people attempt suicide, they do it with 100% of their will power; whereas some are not entirely sure that they really want to end this lifetime 'prematurely', and hence was half-hearted when attempting suicide. That might have led to varying outcome, and varying degree of success.

I don't think that is always the case. while it is definately true that sometimes someone changes their mind in the middle of an attempt, there are other people who try again and again in a short period of time where the only thing that stops them from dying is the will of others (hospitalization)

[Aisin]

I think you have misunderstood my point. What I meant to say is, regardless of the number of attempts and the frequency of attempts, it is whether one desires it (premature death in this case) half-heartedly or otherwise. If you want something badly enough, be it death or success, or even enlightenment, then you're more likely to attain it successfully. This may not be the answer to your question, but I've always observed this trend of desire vs probability of success.

[Psi]

Either way you wish to look at suicide, from a purely TP viewpoint, as Michel has said to me, suicide effectively breaks the contract you made with your Higher Self. Consequently, you will not have the opportunity to spend an inordinate amount of time on the astral plane nor preview your next life. You will immediately reincarnate in 49 days, without the opportunity to 'choose' a life.

[Alisima]

But still, one can imagine situations where suicide is the only way out. There are people so terribly stuck, that it will damage them and all those around them if they would continue living.

[Psi]

But still, one can imagine situations where suicide is the only way out. There are people so terribly stuck, that it will damage them and all those around them if they would continue living.

I know what you're saying, Alisima. To those people in that situation - suicide "seems" the only way out. But we need to remember that they "chose" that situation - that lesson - at a higher level (ie previewing their life scenario with their Higher Self). And that's the point - the grief, the suffering is a lesson - something they MUST encounter, that they MUST endure, MUST overcome in order to learn. If they cop out by suicide, it's the same as not sitting for the exam. Guess what will happen next time?

Michel has said categorically that whatever time is owing on their contract (eg let's say the person was supposed to die at 50 and suicided at 49) they will have to fulfil in their next life. Which, in our scenario, means that the soul will be incarnated and will die at age three months (ie 9 months in the womb and 3 months of "birth"). They will also choose parents who need to experience the loss of a child at this age / stage of life.

See how perfect the universe is?

And the best part is that you - the soul - are responsible. You do not let "you" get away with anything.

Always, we need to remember why we are here: To learn, to evolve. How can you do that if you skip classes, if you fake answers or if you refuse to take exams?

Getting back to the victims of suicide - those they commit it and those who they affect. It is terribly sad, of course. I have known a couple in my life. However, again, it's important to understand that those who are "left behind" chose to have those souls who broke the contract in their lives. Again, there's something in this for everyone involved.

Again, the perfection of the universe at work.

[Alisima]

I know what you're saying, Alisima. To those people in that situation - suicide "seems" the only way out. But we need to remember that they "chose" that situation - that lesson - at a higher level (ie previewing their life scenario with their Higher Self). And that's the point - the grief, the suffering is a lesson - something they MUST encounter, that they MUST endure, MUST overcome in order to learn. If they cop out by suicide, it's the same as not sitting for the exam. Guess what will happen next time?

An interesting fact, people don't commit suicide at their lowest point, when there is the most suffering, but only when things start to get better. They do it, so it is claimed, when they are already coming out of the rat hole and deceide that they will never fall into it again. It seems, if it is true, that they have already gotten their suffering and that the suicide is purely a way to make sure that it won't happen again.

But we need to remember that they "chose" that situation - that lesson - at a higher level (ie previewing their life scenario with their Higher Self).

Is it not possible for someone to have gotten off track? For instance, he was meant to do some things in his life, some good things, some bad things. But due to some reason, he has taken another way. Is that at all possible? For if it is the other way around, that everything is predetermined, how could they ever do something against the predetermined, that is, in this case, suicide? Why would you make plans and also maintain the idea that anybody can do what he wants? A smart higher self wouldn't make plans for he knows that things turn out differently (the fact that we commit suicide confirms this), instead he would make plans along the way, sort of improving.

Michel has said categorically that whatever time is owing on their contract (eg let's say the person was supposed to die at 50 and suicided at 49) they will have to fulfil in their next life. Which, in our scenario, means that the soul will be incarnated and will die at age three months (ie 9 months in the womb and 3 months of "birth"). They will also choose parents who need to experience the loss of a child at this age / stage of life.

So you are saying that some parent need to experience the loss of a child?? In that case, we need to have as many childeren who die prematurely as there are parent who need to experience this. So, the suicide is helping those parents, for else they would not have a child who dies prematurely, or, God would have to butcher innocent ones, just for the growth of their parents. Let say there are 20 parents who need to experience child loss, but there are only 19 who commited suicide, so there are not enough childeren to accommodate the growth of their parents. Would I then solve this problem, and thus help my future parents to grow, if I were to commit suicide?? Wouldn't it be the most nobelist thing? Sacrificing myself for the growth of others? (Ofcourse, let this be noted, I in no way encourage suicide, but I am here just following the 'rules' set forth by the 'perfect' universe Psi believes there to be.)

See how perfect the universe is?

If it is, why do we commit suicide? And if suicide is somehow allowed, as it is, then it surely musn't be a bad thing. In any case it only stalls growth, it wouldn't stop it. And as I said in the above paragraph, it would even help those who need to experience child loss.

And the best part is that you - the soul - are responsible. You do not let "you" get away with anything.

It would be quite stupid if I were to punish, or even fight myself.

Always, we need to remember why we are here: To learn, to evolve. How can you do that if you skip classes, if you fake answers or if you refuse to take exams?

To follow your analogy, what if I knew I haven't payed attention in class and wouldn't in any way pass the exam. Is that possible?

Getting back to the victims of suicide - those they commit it and those who they affect. It is terribly sad, of course. I have known a couple in my life. However, again, it's important to understand that those who are "left behind" chose to have those souls who broke the contract in their lives. Again, there's something in this for everyone involved.

Again you are saying that some people, for there growth, need to have people around them who commit suicide. And yet you uphold the idea that suicide is bad.

Let's be honest here, you maintain that suicide is bad, yet you have given 2 reasons, completely by yourself, why it is in fact necessary and accomodates the growth of others. First reason is that some parents need to experience child loss (ofcourse, not all of those childeren have to have commited suicide). Second reason is that some people need to have others around them who commit suicide. All and all, following your 'perfect' universe, I seems suicide isn't that bad, for it allows two groups of people to grow, and it allows, the one taking his life, to have a fresh start, or just as fresh as it can get.

[ptex]

Is it not possible for someone to have gotten off track? For instance, he was meant to do some things in his life, some good things, some bad things. But due to some reason, he has taken another way. Is that at all possible? For if it is the other way around, that everything is predetermined, how could they ever do something against the predetermined, that is, in this case, suicide? Why would you make plans and also maintain the idea that anybody can do what he wants? A smart higher self wouldn't make plans for he knows that things turn out differently (the fact that we commit suicide confirms this), instead he would make plans along the way, sort of improving.

We always have freedom of choice don't we? So we can very well at one point or another decide things differently and decide to derail on our own... suicide, drugs and excessively loud noise are 3 of such possible traps along the way. I don't believe there's nothing predetermined as it doesn't make sense at all! Why would we be living then if everything was already pre-arranged?

The way I figure, and this is only a very high level projection, is that in the course of our lives and at a certain time we'll be placed to face the situations or challenges (the tests) that are needed in order to evolve, to proceed to the next step, and it's entirely up to us (we don't remember the purpose of our living for instance for some reason) to accomplish it.

I believe many of us have felt that at a certain moment having done something in a certain way made a difference and something (invisible) somehow clicked...

Psi is very much right: there's such a thing called Natural Law (or Universal Law) which is responsible for keeping the balance of things within this Universe in every possible circumstance (even the case of the most far fetched event we can possibly conceive). Therefore the study of Natural Law is of vital importance for all of us!

[Psi]

An interesting fact, people don't commit suicide at their lowest point, when there is the most suffering, but only when things start to get better. They do it, so it is claimed, when they are already coming out of the rat hole and deceide that they will never fall into it again. It seems, if it is true, that they have already gotten their suffering and that the suicide is purely a way to make sure that it won't happen again. .

You say fact – can you back that up with a study or better a URL? With respect, the ‘fact’ you state doesn’t make sense to me.

Before I tell you why, apply it to your own life. No matter who you are, how long you have been here on this planet this life, there have been times when life has seemed unfair, unforgivable; there have been some times when you’ve thought – even for a fleeting moment – “what the point in going on?”. I’m not suggesting that at that moment you reached for a knife or anything, I’m just saying that most people at some point in their life have considered the possibility of ending it. But most people don’t go through with it. Why? What stops them? How did they resolve those feelings? How did they move on? Please, just take a moment to think back and consider how that applies to your life (Alisima, I trust you realise I am not just addressing this to you, personally, but to everyone who is reading this).

Now, Alisima, back to what I was saying – I don’t accept this fact of killing themselves to make sure that the same situation won't happen again. Here’s why: If one has learned the lesson (ie let’s say that the person got hooked on drugs, then turned to crime to feed their habit and that lead to violence, prison and thoughts of suicide as they continued to spiral down – I have known and counselled such a person), then according to your scenario, when that person had emerged from the rat hole – that would be the time to end their life rather than in their darkest hour. That doesn’t make sense. What makes sense is cutting the cord when it all gets too hard, when there appears no way out – not when you have beaten it but when it has beaten you. The person I know, by the way, is now clean and sober and an honest, law-abiding person. He is also an avid reader / believer in the Book and is an inspiration to people around him.

He is now helping others find their way out of the dark. As I have said to that person, he can do a better job of helping others like him than I could – because he has walked the walk and talked the talk. They will listen more readily to him than to someone like me who hasn’t experienced his troubles. There are many examples (some have been turned into books and movies) of people who have crossed back over from the wrong side of the tracks and helped others to do so.

To me, that’s the beauty of the Universe: Offering lessons which ultimately improve the life of the student as well as those who observe.

But we need to remember that they "chose" that situation - that lesson - at a higher level (ie previewing their life scenario with their Higher Self).

Is it not possible for someone to have gotten off track? For instance, he was meant to do some things in his life, some good things, some bad things. But due to some reason, he has taken another way. Is that at all possible? For if it is the other way around, that everything is predetermined, how could they ever do something against the predetermined, that is, in this case, suicide?

Michel makes the point in his book that there is room for free will and destiny. He says, as I have stated here, that when you reconvene with your Higher Self you preview one or more scenarios of potential lives you could lead, then choose one. That is to say, you get an overview of the lessons that you will face in life and then the book is closed (ie River of Oblivion washes away all memory of that preview). Then it’s up to you. I trust you see the distinction between what I have explained and the idea that your whole life is planned in advanced and that you cannot deviate.

Again, taking into consideration what I have just said, suicide is not part of the contract. Either way you slice it, it’s a cop out. You weren’t put on this Earth, you did not choose a life, just to end it when things got too much.

So you are saying that some parent need to experience the loss of a child?? In that case, we need to have as many childeren who die prematurely as there are parent who need to experience this. So, the suicide is helping those parents, for else they would not have a child who dies prematurely, or, God would have to butcher innocent ones, just for the growth of their parents. Let say there are 20 parents who need to experience child loss, but there are only 19 who commited suicide, so there are not enough childeren to accommodate the growth of their parents. Would I then solve this problem, and thus help my future parents to grow, if I were to commit suicide?? Wouldn't it be the most nobelist thing? Sacrificing myself for the growth of others? (Ofcourse, let this be noted, I in no way encourage suicide, but I am here just following the 'rules' set forth by the 'perfect' universe Psi believes there to be.)

You’re taking me too literally here. I have just used an example. There doesn’t need to be an equal amount of souls who suicide versus parents who must learn from the premature death of their child, nor does any soul simply sacrifice themselves through suicide solely for another person’s lessons. They have suicided for their own (flawed) reasons. Other people learn as a by-product of this.

Getting back to my example: The child who dies of cot death at three months, may have died for some other reason beyond suiciding in their previous life. Maybe that soul had learned a great deal in its last life and chose to return to Earth once more briefly more so to help others before moving on to a higher category. This is similar to your thinking regarding sacrificing yourself for others – but I am not talking about sacrificing through suicide – there’s a profound difference.

Either way you look at it, that soul choose to pass over at that time – that was the contract they made with their Higher Self – and it was a lesson for the baby as well as for its parents and others in its life. As I said, there’s something in this experience for everyone involved. Even those who are reading this exchange – be it that it’s angering them or touching them – it’s making them think, and that’s ultimately what it’s all about.

See how perfect the universe is?

If it is, why do we commit suicide? And if suicide is somehow allowed, as it is, then it surely musn't be a bad thing. In any case it only stalls growth, it wouldn't stop it.

Suicide is not allowed – it is against Universal Law, for the simple reason that you break the contract. You don’t sit for the exam, you don’t pass the test, so you have to repeat it. But, as Ptex rightly says, we can suicide. We have free will; we can do effectively anything we want to including going against Universal Law by doing “unnatural things” like murder, suicide or, ironically, taking away the free will of others.

Why do people suicide? Simply because they can see no way out of the hole they put themselves in. Sad but true.

I agree with you, in that suicide only stalls growth, it doesn’t stop it. Further on that point, I am not an advocate of Tom Chalko’s theory that those souls which continually screw up get destroyed / recycled. I believe that eventually every soul learns, every soul evolves. Simply because each time you “get it wrong”, your Higher Self places you back in the same class to learn the same lessons until you pass. I believe everyone eventually passes – even the ‘dumbest’ students.

You’ll note that at no time has Michel in his books or interviews advocated this destruction/recycling theory of Tom’s. I would think that if he agreed with it, he would have made mention of it because it is a highly controversial and, if true, important point.

Always, we need to remember why we are here: To learn, to evolve. How can you do that if you skip classes, if you fake answers or if you refuse to take exams?

To follow your analogy, what if I knew I haven't payed attention in class and wouldn't in any way pass the exam. Is that possible?

We’re talking about two different things here.

Each of us has lessons to learn. If we pass, we get new lessons on this planet or on a higher category planet. Most don’t know there are lessons and most of those who do don’t know what those lessons are and, therefore, whether or not they have passed. Even the more spiritually aware people (such as those who have read the Book and participate in this forum) don’t know if they have learned their lessons.

I, for one, have done a lot of work on myself in this life but how do I know if it’s enough? How do I know if I have resolved karma from past mistakes in past lives and this one? How do I know if I have not created new karma which I will have to address later in this life or the next?

I guess none of us will know until the ‘day of judgement’ when you break bread with your Higher Self. All any of us can do is our best: to live according to Universal Law and to have the right intentions towards ourselves and to others.

Back to your question: Souls who know they haven’t payed attention in class don’t suicide for that reason – they suicide because it’s all too much for them to bear or they cannot see a way out. So they think they’ll take the ‘easy way out’ when, in fact, they have only prolonged their misery – to be continued in the next life. A life, as I said, that they will not have the opportunity to preview and choose (ie returning in 49 days).

Getting back to the victims of suicide - those that commit it and those who they affect. It is terribly sad, of course. I have known a couple in my life. However, again, it's important to understand that those who are "left behind" chose to have those souls who broke the contract in their lives. Again, there's something in this for everyone involved.

Again you are saying that some people, for there growth, need to have people around them who commit suicide. And yet you uphold the idea that suicide is bad.

Let's be honest here, you maintain that suicide is bad, yet you have given 2 reasons, completely by yourself, why it is in fact necessary and accomodates the growth of others. First reason is that some parents need to experience child loss (ofcourse, not all of those childeren have to have commited suicide). Second reason is that some people need to have others around them who commit suicide. All and all, following your 'perfect' universe, I seems suicide isn't that bad, for it allows two groups of people to grow, and it allows, the one taking his life, to have a fresh start, or just as fresh as it can get.

Alisima, as it says in the Book, there are many greys. You’re looking at this as if it’s black and white.

As we have agreed, our lives are not chiselled in stone. We have free will and yet there is also a design, a master plan to our lives. Keeping that in mind, suicide is not part of the plan, however those who do choose it, will influence those around them who loved them or, at least, knew them. Lessons all round. But that’s not to say that those “left behind” needed a loved one to suicide. Life is dynamic. It happened, and they learned from the experience of that loss (or not – their choice, of course).

As for the one who suicide, he doesn’t get a fresh start at all. Quite the opposite, he has to revisit those lessons he skipped.

[InfoSource]

You say fact – can you back that up with a study or better a URL? With respect, the ‘fact’ you state doesn’t make sense to me.

Looks like Alisima's point has some truth to it

http://www.usna.edu/MDC/Clinical/suicide/myths.htm

Myth: Once someone starts feeling better the risk of suicide goes away.

Fact: Suicide risk is often greatest when someone just starts to feel a little better. The person suffering from depression may not have had enough energy to act on thoughts of suicide, but despite the return of a little motivation and energy, they may still feel emotionally distressed and suicidal, thus increasing the risk for self-harm.

I agree with the rest of Psi's post. The higher self gives you an outline of what your next life will be like, not an exact detailed second for second preview of your life. An analogy would be a professor giving you a course outline for a class, that tells you what topics you'll be learning, and what each major test is worth in that class. The tests would analogous to life lessons that one would experience in a lifetime.

As the class goes along certain points (topics) will be more stressful than others on some students (souls). The students can study harder, seek help, or drop the course (i.e. suicide). If they drop the course, they will be required to take it again because the GI requires every soul to graduate every course (life lesson), in every program (category planet) so they can eventually reach the goal of oneness with the GI.

The analogy is oversimplified and doesn't take into account a lot of variables, so it's easy to pick out problems with it, but it's a start.

[Psi]

Hi InfoSource

Thanks for sharing re the survey. I must say I still have trouble believing this. For me, it just doesn't make sense. But, hey, as the old journalist line says: "If it's in print, it must be true".

[earth_student]

Ah....I think most of us here are Western culture origin. Where are the oriental, asian, black origns here in this forum?

I am Vietnamese origin who lives in America. I guess that still makes me an Asian. Not all the IPs that come from Australia or the US mean there is a white (western) person sitting behind the computer screen. Come on guys, put these racial divider away at least in this lovely forum. I'm having enough of these in real life already....

-----

Anyway, I don't think suicide is good because you don't have the right to destroy urself. You didn't give yourself your body so you don't have the right to 'refuse' or 'stop' using it. Before came to earth to take an material body, you had decided and chose this body, this family, this path of life knowing that it's not easy so that it could help you to develop your spirit. You are here to train yourself. Not for a vacation (vacation time is after you 'died' and return to your Higherself).

It's more like a 'waste' of life. Say you have food but you don't want it, just because you don't 'feel like' to eat it; and you decide to throw it away. There are people next to you are starving but can't have your food. And you know it's bad. that's it. With the rest of your life, you can serve some one, you can train yourself more (or at least to pay the debt from your past lives more efficiently). I tried to suicide once when i was a very young kid after being scolded by my parents. I still can't believe that I atually tried it since i was a very young kid... that's sad. But i failed to do anything harmful to myself. I put down the knife and cried. I passed the test I guess because from then on I have been much stronger.

I hope they could extinguish any gray cloud of negative thought before it had a chance to develop. Maybe it's very small thought, but they can build up over time, believe me. And they will develop into a dull, negative thought forms that will come in to action when there is a chance... scary stuff. Not until you know it.

Peace,