Iranians study and promote "Civil Disobedience"

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Iranians study and promote "Civil Disobedience"

Post: # 4891Post Robanan »

I found this Article on http://www.ahura.info/articles.html
Civil disobedience encompasses the active refusal to obey certain laws, demands and commands of a government or of an occupying power without resorting to physical violence. Civil disobedience has been used in nonviolent resistance movements in India in the fight against British colonialism, South Africa in the fight against apartheid and in the civil rights movement of the USA and Europe as well as in the Scandinavian resistance against Nazi occupation.

The American author Henry David Thoreau pioneered the modern theory behind this practice in his 1849 essay Civil Disobedience (available at Wikisource), originally titled "Resistance to Civil Government". The driving idea behind the essay was that of self-reliance, and how one is in morally good standing as long as they "get off another man ' s back"; so you don ' t have to physically fight the government, but you must not support it or have it support you (if you are against it). This essay has had a wide influence on many later practitioners of civil disobedience. In the essay, Thoreau explained his reasons for having refused to pay taxes as an act of protest against slavery and against the Mexican-American War.

Civil disobedience has served as a major tactic of nationalist movements in former colonies in Africa and Asia prior to their gaining independence. Most notably Mahatma Gandhi developed civil disobedience as an anti-colonialist tool. Civil disobedience was a tactic used by Polish opposition to the former communist government (See Solidarity).

Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., a leader of the US civil rights movement in the United States in the 1960s also adopted civil disobedience techniques, and antiwar activists both during and after the Vietnam War have done likewise. Since the 1970s, pro-life or anti-abortion groups have practiced civil disobedience against the U.S. government over the issue of legalized abortion. More recently, in the 2000s, people have used civil disobedience to protest the war on Iraq.

Many who practice civil disobedience do so out of religious faith, and clergy often participate in or lead actions of civil disobedience. A notable example is Philip Berrigan, a Roman Catholic priest who was arrested dozens of times in acts of civil disobedience in antiwar protests.

In seeking an active form of civil disobedience, one may choose to deliberately break certain laws, such as by forming a peaceful blockade or occupying a facility illegally. Protesters practice this non-violent form of civil disorder with the expectation that they will be arrested, or even attacked or beaten by the authorities. Protesters often undergo training in advance on how to react to arrest or to attack, so that they will do so in a manner that quietly or limply resists without threatening the authorities. For example, Mahatma Gandhi outlined the following rules:

1- A civil resister (or satyagrahi) will harbour no anger.
2- He will suffer the anger of the opponent.
3- In so doing he will put up with assaults from the opponent, never retaliate; but he will not submit, out of fear of punishment or the like, to any order given in anger.
4- When any person in authority seeks to arrest a civil resister, he will voluntarily submit to the arrest, and he will not resist the attachment or removal of his own property, if any, when it is sought to be confiscated by authorities.
5- If a civil resister has any property in his possession as a trustee, he will refuse to surrender it, even though in defending it he might lose his life. He will, however, never retaliate.
5- Retaliation includes swearing and cursing.
6- Therefore a civil resister will never insult his opponent, and therefore also not take part in many of the newly coined cries which are contrary to the spirit of ahimsa.
7- A civil resister will not salute the Union Jack, nor will he insult it or officials, English or Indian.
8- In the course of the struggle if anyone insults an official or commits an assault upon him, a civil resister will protect such official or officials from the insult or attack even at the risk of his life.

Gandhi distinguished between his idea of satyagraha and the passive resistance of the west.

Civil Disobedience

Dare to do things worthy of imprisonment if you mean to be of consequence. ~Juvenal (Decimus Junius Juvenalis)

Laws control the lesser man. Right conduct controls the greater one. ~Chinese Proverb

Never do anything against conscience even if the state demands it. ~Albert Einstein

No radical change on the plane of history is possible without crime. ~Hermann Keyserling

When leaders act contrary to conscience, we must act contrary to leaders. ~Veterans Fast for Life

It is dangerous to be right in matters on which the established authorities are wrong. ~Voltaire

If... the machine of government... is of such a nature that it requires you to be the agent of injustice to another, then, I say, break the law. ~Henry David Thoreau, On the Duty of Civil Disobediance, 1849

Human history begins with man ' s act of disobedience which is at the very same time the beginning of his freedom and development of his reason. ~Erich Fromm, Psychoanalysis and Religion

Each man must for himself alone decide what is right and what is wrong, which course is patriotic and which isn ' t. You cannot shirk this and be a man. To decide against your conviction is to be an unqualified and excusable traitor, both to yourself and to your country, let men label you as they may. ~Mark Twain

Integrity has no need of rules. ~Albert Camus

If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable. ~Louis D. Brandeis

Laws are only words written on paper, words that change on society ' s whim and are interpreted differently daily by politicians, lawyers, judges, and policemen. Anyone who believes that all laws should always be obeyed would have made a fine slave catcher. Anyone who believes that all laws are applied equally, despite race, religion, or economic status, is a fool. ~John J. Miller, And Hope to Die

Disobedience, the rarest and most courageous of the virtues, is seldom distinguished from neglect, the laziest and commonest of the vices. ~George Bernard Shaw, Maxims for Revolutionists

Every actual state is corrupt. Good men must not obey laws too well. ~Ralph Waldo Emerso

We should never forget that everything Adolf Hitler did in Germany was "legal" and everything the Hungarian freedom fighters did in Hungary was "illegal." ~Martin Luther King, Jr., "Letter from Birmingham Jail," Why We Can ' t Wait, 1963

He cannot, by total reliance on law, escape the duty to judge right and wrong.... There are good laws and there are occasionally bad laws, and it conforms to the highest traditions of a free society to offer resistance to bad laws, and to disobey them. ~Alexander Bickel

It is necessary to distinguish between the virtue and the vice of obedience. ~Lemuel K. Washburn, Is The Bible Worth Reading And Other Essays, 1911

I think that we should be men first, and subjects afterward. It is not so desirable to cultivate a respect for the law, so much as for the right. ~Henry David Thoreau, Civil Disobedience, 1849

As long as the world shall last there will be wrongs, and if no man objected and no man rebelled, those wrongs would last forever. ~Clarence Darrow

It is not what a lawyer tells me I may do; but what humanity, reason, and justice tell me I ought to do. ~Edmund Burke, Second Speech on Conciliation, 1775

I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do. ~Robert A. Heinlein, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress

Ordinarily, a person leaving a courtroom with a conviction behind him would wear a somber face. But I left with a smile. I knew that I was a convicted criminal, but I was proud of my crime. ~Martin Luther King, Jr., March 22, 1956

If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor. If an elephant has its foot on the tail of a mouse and you say that you are neutral, the mouse will not appreciate your neutrality. ~Bishop Desmond Tutu

It is not a man ' s duty, as a matter of course, to devote himself to the eradication of any, even the most enormous wrong; he may still properly have other concerns to engage him; but it is his duty, at least, to wash his hands of it, and, if he gives it no thought longer, not to give it practically his support. If I devote myself to other pursuits and contemplations, I must first see, at least, that I do not pursue them sitting upon another man ' s shoulders. ~Henry David Thoreau, On the Duty of Civil Disobedience
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Post: # 4892Post InfoSource »

Well hopefully some civil disobedience in Iran will lead to government reforms there, the guys in charge are crazy & radical fundamentalists

The president of Iran has said some inflammatory marks towards the west & Israel recently (denying the Holocaust, suggesting moving Israel to Europe, banning western music)

Plus they have nuclear ambitions
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Post: # 4893Post Robanan »

I think if the government of Iran was really intrested in providing energy for the people, the problem could be solved in matter of seconds. Iran seems to now have a unique possibility to stand and demand for the global exchange and industrialization of clean hydrogen technology once and for all. I think that countries like Iran have the economic ability to make the whole process much painless. It's most amazing that those who claim to be spiritual leaders have nothing more than their own material concerns.
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Post: # 4894Post Robanan »

InfoSource wrote:Well hopefully some civil disobedience in Iran will lead to government reforms there, the guys in charge are crazy & radical fundamentalists

The president of Iran has said some inflammatory marks towards the west & Israel recently (denying the Holocaust, suggesting moving Israel to Europe, banning western music)

Plus they have nuclear ambitions
They are all barking at eachother, but these are just the appearances. If you want to discuss what's behind the scene, please make a topic about it under the unrelated forum; we could move your post and my answer there and continue discussing it. :)

For a starter, who do you think benefits most, from the "war on Terrorism" campaign? why?
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Post: # 4896Post Alisima »

InfoSource wrote:The president of Iran has said some inflammatory marks towards the west & Israel recently (denying the Holocaust, suggesting moving Israel to Europe, banning western music)
Well, regarding banning western music he has a point. Most is horrible. Besides, regardless of music, I can't blaim them for hating the west. I do think that the remarks most non-westerners make about the west are fairly accurate, although they themselves don't do any better. It is better to adopt a 'I learn from you, you learn from me'-strategy. But these people, and the western governement included, have inflated ego's, so the chances of nuclear holocaust are higher.
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Post: # 4898Post Vesko »

I agree with most of what you said, Alisima.

Even classical music is banned in Iran! This is very wrong. There's quite a bit of classical music that I find good.
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Post: # 4900Post InfoSource »

For a starter, who do you think benefits most, from the "war on Terrorism" campaign? why?
I think western governments benefit most from the war on terror, it gives them an excuse to take away peoples freedoms in exchange for security which in turn gives the governments more power and powerful governments that rule through fear are not good governments to have

I think the war on terror is largely a hoax (see my posts and Tom Jansen's for that matter in the Google Earth thread)

The US government recently admitting to spying on it's own citizens without court warrant, so the potential for abuse with these new powers given to governments for security is high

The spying is only small abuse compared to false imprisonment & torture of Arabs because the "might" be terrorists (see Guantanamo Bay & Abu Ghraib scandals)
Well, regarding banning western music he has a point. Most is horrible.
How so is western music horrible? It seems a lot of people agree with you in regards to that, but they mostly feel mainstream western music is terrible, and prefer underground alternative rock music, so it's a difference of preference

I've heard people say they have issues with western music because they find it repetitive, uncreative, and with too many relationship songs

Is that the same with you?
Last edited by InfoSource on Mon Jan 30, 2006 10:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post: # 4901Post Robanan »

It's bad that people in Iran are not allowed to set the preferences of the music they like to hear by themselves.

But this in turn shows that the Iranian government is busy setting preferences that ensure a firm grip over the people and power, instead. Just like the western countries. InfoSource, Alisima I do agree with you.

I heard that The new president of Iran was elected because he made many promises to help the poor and deal with corruption, It seems that he has already forgot about all that.

The less music is there to hear, the less people will turn on their radio and television, So It seems that Iran doesn't really need to build Nuclear reactors. :lol:

Notice the flow of Russian Weapons to Iran too.
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Post: # 4903Post Robanan »

IRAN: SECULAR PARTY FORMED IN EXILE -news from http://www.michnews.com/artman/publish/ ... 1032.shtml
"Iranian National Secular Party."

That’s the title of the newly organized freedom effort. Its mission is to bring truth to the world community regarding what happens in Iran. Hopefully, the new party will bring actual liberties to Iranians within the borders of Iran.

The chairman of the newly formed entity is Aryo Priouznia, coordinator for the "Student Movement Coordination Committee for Democracy in Iran" (SMCCDI).

....

"Every day there are more Iranians who are rallying around such positive, progressive and humanistic foundations which is the best antidote to radical Islamic ideology and its backward logic, intolerance, and gender discrimination, fascism, and promotion of hate and terror against the West," Priouznia said.

One of the main hopes of any democracy agenda regarding Iran is the youth population. Youths make up the vast majority of Muslim populations anywhere in the world. The same is true of Iran. If democracy can get hold of the youth’s idealism and strength, it can find its way in toppling ruthless despots.

"INSP is a new entity that should be able, as a political party, to help in the implementation of the well-known desire by most Iranians for a secular democracy and be permitted and recognized as a nation promoting peace and tolerance," Pirouznia explained.

INSP works with freedom-espousing individuals of all races, religions and backgrounds. The baseline is working for Iranian personal freedoms. INSP anticipates that someday Iran will be set loose from the present tyrannical hold. Iranians in exile have not forgotten those still enslaved by a dictatorship molded by a legalistic, extremist Islamic regime. INSP is opposed to the Iranian theocracy.
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Post: # 4905Post Alisima »

InfoSource wrote:How so is western music horrible? It seems a lot of people agree with you in regards to that, but they mostly feel mainstream western music is terrible, and prefer underground alternative rock music, so it's a difference of preference

I've heard people say they have issues with western music because they find it repetitive, uncreative, and with too many relationship songs

Is that the same with you?
Well compare it to a painter who throws away all his brushes except one. The brush itself, and whatever gets created with it, is not bad, but since the painter has closed himself to so many other posibilities I think it is sad. Now don't get me wrong, I would love to have a painting only made with one brush, but I expect the next painting he makes, or at least the tenth painting, to be with a different brush, so he stays fresh.

The problem with western music is still worse, not only has one painter abandoned all his brushes except one, but all painters have and they refuse to pick up new brushes claiming the brush they have to be 'the best'. Ofcourse, what they fail to notice is that the art is not in the brush but in the painter himself.

So, western music isn't bad. But it is becoming more boring every second. Western musicians have crippled themselves and refuse to get better.

But then again, it is a matter of preferences. If you still like western music, than there is nothing wrong with it. There is nothing wrong with it. But, as you 'grow up' and get a more refined hearing, you might want to explore other musical idea's, which, western music can't provide.

I think music should be flowing from one extreme to another in all possible (un)expected ways, but instead it is stuck at one pole and, in my eyes, is dead.
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Post: # 4909Post Robanan »

I think that music must be the smallest of the problems of the Iranian people; The worst of which must be their government... anyway.
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Post: # 4921Post Frozn »

Hello again everyone, I hope your holidays went as well as mine. :D In any case I'm back. I really enjoyed the article and discussion about civil disobedience. One day I hope to see it help those who would peacefully and lovingly put an end to injustice and oppression. For now though, I admit that it is still wishful thinking, and I will view it as such.

I don't see how western music got involved in this, perhaps it parachuted in somewhere. Still I find it hilarious. Being from the west, I can agree with Alisima and anyone else in agreement that most of it is God-Awful. Much like Alisima's brush metaphor, which might or might not apply exactly to western music, to rule out and dismiss something without a full perspective on it. That would be much like the same painter using fresh brushes, yet dismissing the color blue, and thus never using it. This thought process can go on for years in a metaphorical sense.

No, I don't propose to change anyone's mind on the quality of this music. I will however, express my point of view. Sadly, the rock music that has come out in the past 5 years is poor, I don't think it's because the style isn't diverse enough, but the artists are becoming less creative. That would be my frustration.

The only new group I've liked in years would have to be the band Shinedown. Manly chords, beutiful melody, and a positive message of inner-strength and development of self behind it.

Anyways back on topic, It is indeed a shame that Iran would ban their citizens from listening to music from a culture that is no better than they are for imposing such a prohibition. No law could take music away from me. They'd have to jail me. Since I never see it coming to that, I'll leave that for speculation.
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Post: # 4942Post Robanan »

Frozn wrote:I don't see how western music got involved in this, perhaps it parachuted in somewhere. Still I find it hilarious.
I'm most concerned about the Music discussion under this topic. Regardless of my efforts It practically turns out that this topic is serving no purpose except being a place for an ordinary chit-chat. I urge everyone to notice that this topic has potentially the possibility to draw much attention from the people who are intrested in understanding the concept and means of civil disobedience. We are only wasting their time and effort and since we are practically doing "Nothing" the message of the book is not yet visible here.

I ask of those who are intrested, please at least try to quote what the book says about this topic either by direct quoting or through your own wording. We are to present that civil disobedience movements are required by those who stride for developing spiritually through their material existence.

Vesko, Bastian, Yothu, Kestrel, Lachie, bomohwkl, Zark, GreatIntellect, Not a Lemming, Frozn, aisin, Labinola, creativekey, Lena, Marcus, trumpet_is_cool, tomjansen, Leventis, Leo, InfoSource, Alisima and others. Coherent and creative contribution under this topic might really help some of our fellow individuals get a clearcut vision out of the net of misinformation and the veil of ignorance that has casted it's shadow on the future of our civilization.




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Post: # 4945Post Alisima »

Robanan wrote:
Frozn wrote:I don't see how western music got involved in this, perhaps it parachuted in somewhere. Still I find it hilarious.
I'm most concerned about the Music discussion under this topic.
You mean least concerned. I get what you mean though.
Robanan wrote:Regardless of my efforts It practically turns out that this topic is serving no purpose except being a place for an ordinary chit-chat.
Chit-chat?? It may seem like that, but it is not. If one fully understands one thing, one understands all. So, although my detour is seen by most as unimportant relative to what you are talking about, I say it is not. If you fully understand why and how western music is as it is right now, you know what to do in every situation, I repeat: in every situation.

So, now that that is out of the way, let us return to Civil Disobedience. Although civil disobedience works good for most people, namely those who, by there very nature, follow, mostely unconsciously, many of Gandhi's 'rules', for some it does not. Think of someone who can't 'harbour no anger.' Is he a good candidate for civil disobedience??

What I am saying is this: not everyone is a passive protestor. Although I myself are, I believe many are not. So, civil disobedience is not a 100% procent solution, for some it is, for some it is not. Saying that civil disobedience is "required by those who stride for developing spiritually through their material existence" doesn't apply to all people.

The next thing I find funny is that civil disobedience has rules. You disobey by following rules?? Although this is more a philosophical issue.

Still, I believe civil disobedience can work. Although killing works just as well.









But we are no killers are we?
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Post: # 4947Post Robanan »

Alisima wrote:Think of someone who can't 'harbour no anger.' Is he a good candidate for civil disobedience??
A perfect candidate for civil disobedience is the person, who understands why and consciously chooses not to harbour anger and violence.
Alisima wrote:Saying that civil disobedience is "required by those who stride for developing spiritually through their material existence" doesn't apply to all people.
Yes it should apply only to those who understand why we should develop spiritually through our material existence. I hope the book is not "Old and uninteractive" for you because I'm about to ask you to read it again.

Did you know that the foundation of the ideology of living in spiritual and material prosperity among the ancient Iranians was based on three simple commandments: Good thoughts, Good words and Good deeds?
Alisima wrote:The next thing I find funny is that civil disobedience has rules. You disobey by following rules?? Although this is more a philosophical issue.
We can discuss the related philosophical issues around the topic: "Civilian Disobedience" under this topic forever.
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