Voltaire: 'I have never made but one prayer to God, a...'

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Vesko
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Voltaire: 'I have never made but one prayer to God, a...'

Post: # 4094Post Vesko »

yothu wrote:Image
Voltaire's quote is in a total antipode to Christ's "Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you" and of course the fourth commandment, "You shall love your neighbour as yourself".
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Yothu
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Post: # 4096Post Yothu »

I believe by enemies Voltaire means the mechanists, which are materialists to my understanding. IMO Voltaire is a defender of theism, thus his comment is as justified as Jesus' accusation of the pharesees in Gospel of Thomas § 102.
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Post: # 4097Post Vesko »

What is written is just enemies and I understand that as any enemy. If he has meant something else, it ought to have been specified, right? Regarding his theism, it is not a Christian theism and he may have been aware that the statement was incompatible with Christianity. He has made a lot of anti-Christian and anti-Bible statements.
How do you think Jesus' accusation justifies Voltaire's words?
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Yothu
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Post: # 4098Post Yothu »

oh-oh. and I even put a picture of the quote instead of plain text. this let's it appear more pathetic.

Vesko, I do not know about the lots of anti-christian and anti-Bible statements. I read his work "About truth and humanity" and his chapters almost reads like "TFoC", only that Voltaire narrates IMO prosaic and detailed. It is the same message though.

Has theism to be christian to be valid? I do not think so.

Vesko, feel free to remove my postings, as I do not want to go against any netiquette or forum rules or anything. The quote really isn't that important to me.
I found it funny and a good quote - besides I like Voltaire (I am slowly appreciating his arch-rival Rousseau too, which I hated with pleasure for 4 yrs now).

How does it come you dislike him so much?
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trumpet_is_cool
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Post: # 4099Post trumpet_is_cool »

To Anti-Bible Statements, i see that many uses nice bible quotes in their signature etc. but don`t forget that in the (available version of the) bible is also a lot of violence (see http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html ), you can`t say which is original or faked later...Just be open minded and don`t see only the good sides :-) Just my 2 cents...
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Post: # 4101Post Vesko »

Don't be kidding, you are not violating any forum rules. I personally think there is no need to remove it, as long as this discussion remains. It is absolutely necessary to correct myself though. More precisely, he makes a lot of anti-Christian and anti-Bible statements that I do not think are justified (perhaps some of them are, but I see many that aren't). They go counter the Thiaoouba message, which I agree with totally.
I can't say I dislike him "so much". I need to do more and careful reading of him and then will tell you how much I like him. Some things he has written are clearly very good, such as his opposition to stagnant religious dogma, superstitions and the corrupt priesthood. BTW, here's one more quote:
In 100 years this book will be forgotten and eliminated.
-Voltaire (1694-1778) about the Bible
One thing I can surely say now is that I do not like mockery, as a literary device included. Benevolent irony is fine, but Voltaire has expressed outright animosity by that main device of his. I have noticed from personal experience that all who mock/ridicule others, in a condemning way I mean, have serious problems themselves.
I haven't said that theism has to be Christian to be valid, but what I said did mislead you to think so. I meant Voltaire's theism is inferior to the Christian one. Voltaire's theism does not include the notions of an immaterial soul and the afterlife. I think that any theism that has no notion of those has serious problems. Of course that doesn't meant it is totally invalid. But without those crucial notions there is no eventual paying for one's mistakes, no reward for good deeds in the long term, and I have a big problem with that! I am sorry for firing off your red lights about Christianity and the Bible. My mistake, I had to add those are also anti-Thiaoouban ones, because e.g. Michel's book confirms that Christianity and the Bible are correct about the existence of the soul and the afterlife.

What was the reason you "hated" Rousseau "with pleasure"? My, I know for sure from personal experience that hate cannot be done with pleasure, because it affects negatively and immediately the one who hates, but you know that! ;). For example, Rousseau has certainly taken a more mature view on Christianity and the Bible than Voltaire.
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Yothu
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Post: # 4110Post Yothu »

Very much is about perception and context. You picked a quote of Voltaire without telling us the context. From what I perceive he could have meant that today there is not much left of a sense of the esoteric meaning of the holy bible. And IMO he's quite correct.
Vesko, could you quote the passage or chapters please in which TP states hat Christianity and the Bible are correct about the existence of the soul and the afterlife?
One thing I can surely say now is that I do not like mockery, as a literary device included. Benevolent irony is fine, but Voltaire has expressed outright animosity by that main device of his.
I have yet to discover such mockery.
More precisely, he makes a lot of anti-Christian and anti-Bible statements that I do not think are justified (perhaps some of them are, but I see many that aren't).
Wait, Vesko, you use the terms anti-Christian and anti-Bible and anti-Thiaoouban, but the book TP itself doesn't give a lot about religions here on Earth itself. I don't like the idea of linking Christianity together with TP.
This gives me a very bad feeling.

Not all Enlightenment thinkers were like Voltaire. His chief adversary Jean-Jacques Rousseau, who distrusted the aristocrats not out of a thirst for change but because he believed they were betraying decent traditional values. He opposed the theater which was Voltaire's lifeblood, shunned the aristocracy which Voltaire courted, and argued for something dangerously like democratic revolution. Whereas Voltaire argued that equality was impossible, Rousseau argued that inequality was not only unnatural, but that - when taken too far - it made decent government impossible. Whereas Voltaire charmed with his wit, Rousseau ponderously insisted on his correctness, even while contradicting himself. Whereas Voltaire insisted on the supremacy of the intellect, Rousseau emphasized the emotions, becoming a contributor to both the Enlightenment and its successor, romanticism. And whereas Voltaire endlessly repeated the same handful of core Enlightenment notions, Rousseau sparked off original thoughts in all directions: ideas about education, the family, government, the arts, and whatever else attracted his attention.

From my feeling I am clearly on Voltaires side. I have very similiar views. Emotionally I've been on his side and that's the very reason I disliked Rousseau so much. Do you understand me? :) Like people watching a soccer match. You can't be on both sides.

I have to do more reading on Rousseau, as I like his picture and the little what I've read about him so far is very intriguing.
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Post: # 4113Post bomohwkl »

Don't judge anyone except yourself. Judge only if you have understood the person's history and circumstances the person has undergone. Praise yourself and people of thier goodness. - me
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Post: # 4116Post Vesko »

yothu wrote:Very much is about perception and context. You picked a quote of Voltaire without telling us the context. From what I perceive he could have meant that today there is not much left of a sense of the esoteric meaning of the holy bible. And IMO he's quite correct.
If you re-read what I wrote surrounding the quote above, you will see that I have just given it as another curious quote of Voltaire and have refrained from commenting on it. I realise that he may be partly correct.
yothu wrote:Vesko, could you quote the passage or chapters please in which TP states hat Christianity and the Bible are correct about the existence of the soul and the afterlife?
Chapter "Who was Christ?", page 145:
So, Christ was sent to Earth to preach love and spirituality... his mission was to impart a message of love and goodness... and to enlighten the people in regard to the reincarnation of astral bodies [confirms the existence of a soul, like Christianity actually says] and immortality [to have immortality you need some kind of an afterlife, i.e. life after physical death, therefore this is a confirmation for the existence of an afterlife, like Christianity says there exists].
yothu wrote:I have yet to discover such mockery.
Search the Internet for "voltaire mockery" and "voltaire sarcasm" (without the quotes). His works abound with that. There's even a book, entitled "Voltaire - the Genius of Mockery". His work "Candide" is only one famous example.
yothu wrote:Wait, Vesko, you use the terms anti-Christian and anti-Bible and anti-Thiaoouban, but the book TP itself doesn't give a lot about religions here on Earth itself. I don't like the idea of linking Christianity together with TP.
This gives me a very bad feeling.
Isn't Christianity preaching love each other, help each other, do not kill, do not amass material possessions, pray to your Creator for help? How about that the Creator has human qualities and is deeply interested in the fate of his creations, men-angels, spiritual healing, various "supernatural" events described in the Bible, God's "Chosen people", Moses, Exodus, some prophets, Mary's immaculate conception of Jesus, Annunciation (Thao says it "is correct in every detail"), Christ's pre-knowledge of what would happen while he stayed on Earth, resurrection of Christ, and his and ours eventual rejoining the Creator in Heaven by way of right thinking and right deeds? Haven't all those been clearly confirmed by Michel's book? Michel's book is STRONGLY LINKED to some of the core tenets of Christianity, whether we like it or not. I am NOT saying that the book approves of ALL of Christianity and the Bible, and it itself says it does not, far from it.

I can say I am actually on both sides in the sense that I find myself agreeing with both Voltaire and Rousseau on different points. Voltaire was not without his own problems and contradictions, a serious one, in my humble opinion, being throwing out the baby with the bathwater with respect to Christianity and the Bible. I don't think this is a soccer match; I think I can switch sides whenever I like :).

Bomohwkl, I have not judged Voltaire in a condemning or superficial way. Judging is only bad when it is done in a condemning way or when it is based on superficial information or analysis -- but I think I have now provided hard data to be sure I have not done the latter, either. (See the topic "Judging Others" in the "General Spirituality and Healing" forum.) Condemning oneself or judging superficially about oneself is bad, too. I can't currently remember a Bible passage to back that up, but I surely remember that Edgar Cayce, a devout Christian and one with access to the fabled Akashic Records or psychosphere, has said "Do not condemn youself" or a direct paraphrase of that.

Moderator review note:
September 7, 2005
Added a reference to the topic "Judging Others" in the "General Spirituality and Healing" forum.
Review and change by VeskoP.
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Alisima
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Re: Voltaire: 'I have never made but one prayer to God, a...

Post: # 4118Post Alisima »

Vesko wrote:
yothu wrote:Image
Voltaire's quote is in a total antipode to Christ's "Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you" and of course the fourth commandment, "You shall love your neighbour as yourself".
Voltaire's quote can mean a lot of things. Besides that, do we fully understand what Christ meant with his remark??
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Post: # 4120Post Vesko »

Alisima, with respect to what I have criticized in the quote, "make my enemies ridiculous", it can mean only a single thing: ill-will to enemies. Whereas I at least fully understand that Christ meant one must not desire ill even to one's enemies.
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Post: # 4127Post Yothu »

Vesko wrote:Alisima, with respect to what I have criticized in the quote, "make my enemies ridiculous", it can mean only a single thing: ill-will to enemies. Whereas I at least fully understand that Christ meant one must not desire ill even to one's enemies.
I don't wanna be pedantic, but I thought of that quote of Voltaire's and came to the conclusion that it is possible this is a humouristic note. A joke. I'll check it in french.

It is possible to love somebody while making fun of him/her. Think of teenagers that cherish each other.
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Alisima
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Post: # 4129Post Alisima »

Vesko wrote:Alisima, with respect to what I have criticized in the quote, "make my enemies ridiculous", it can mean only a single thing: ill-will to enemies. Whereas I at least fully understand that Christ meant one must not desire ill even to one's enemies.
What the quote could also say is that enemies are ridiculous by nature, for they are enemies. Which, if you take it a step further, actually comes very close to jesus' remark.
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Post: # 4134Post Vesko »

I think it is undoubtedly humourous, but the humour is sarcasm, expressing contempt for the enemies. My opinion is that it is cool to make fun of somebody, only as far as your humour is good-natured. Alisima, if enemies are ridiculous by nature, then God would not have granted Voltaire's wish because there would have been nothing to grant. But Voltaire's wish has been granted, therefore your statement is false.
Reading it in the original language it has been written in can help turn the tables, so to speak, but I doubt it very much -- I think the quote is a specimen of the mockery I have mentioned in my previous posts.
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Yothu
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Post: # 4136Post Yothu »

You're right, it does not turn the tables.
« J'ai toujours fait une prière à Dieu, qui est fort courte. La voici : "Mon Dieu, rendez nos ennemis bien ridicules !" Dieu m'a exaucé. »
The only difference is that he says that he used to always make a prayer, a very short one ... "... make our enemies ..."

It is said that Voltaire used logic and humor to show that opposition to his viewpoint was totally ridiculous - and in this technique Voltaire was the master of his time.
If you do what you've always done, you'll get what you always got.
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