circumcision and free will

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Rezo
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circumcision and free will

Post: # 9393Post Rezo »

why is circumcision, particularly male circumcision in countries like the US, or South Korea, Israel, some muslim countries, Uganda...etc....so prevalent? It seems fairly apparent female circumcision is abhorrent to anyone read on it, yet male circumcision is considered so benign - yet it is not.

Such barbarity goes against the freewill of the infant, or child, by forcibly removing perfectly normal tissue! I imagine that this will also affect the lower 2 chakras and hence the balance of the others, but that at this point is still my personal assumption as no research in this way has been tested due to the aura of taboo around this obviously disgusting practice.

Ive done my research but prefer to keep this opener brief. Many feel it is healthy, disease preventive, morally upright etc. all lies and propaganda to make money and control how we live. Look into history, specifically Egypt and other countries. Jews were not uniquely commanded to do this, it was actually common at the biblical times probably older. A mark of servitude, of a permanent deprival to serve a compartmentalized purpose.
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shezmear
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Post: # 9398Post shezmear »

I think they used to do it for reasons in the army for example because it was considered cleaner, so the men did not get infections, religious reaons? Christ who knows? I got circumcised, and I don’t really remember the pain, but I’m sure my subconscious does, I recon, it would have hurt like hell, I’m dead against female circumcision and they way they do it, makes my stomach turn….some of the horror storeys I have read, Jesus… :shock: and I don’t know why my mother did it? It properly had to do with her up bringing....I would not do it to my son...or daughter.....
By their deeds shall you know them.
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Rezo
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Post: # 9400Post Rezo »

Preface: I dont mean in any way to ignore female version of this - as it is markedly worse in complete glans amputation in many cases, which is clearly more crippling. I focus on the male aspect specifically because it remains overlooked by many, yet continues as if no problem. The fact it is in the bible makes me wonder who put it there and why.

well, there is the option of nonsurgical restoration via a specific regimen of 'skin expansion' that is practiced and seems to work save a few major anatomical absenses. Nerves grow and all tissue being expanded grows back, but it depends on what remains. The process can take at least a few years. As per Robert Beckers research in microcurrent, as we yet dont have the capacity to regenerate an entire limb or ... by will alone, this technology may assist the process. So far it appears relatively safe, however unfunded and probably will take some years just as a therapeutic method to gain a momentum of acceptance, 'officially.'

Many complications do indeed arise from male circumcision, it is in fact far from a simple excision of just a 'tiny bit of skin'. One reason for this is the way the skin naturally adheres to glans until at least 9 or 10, or perhaps by early even later teenage years, but often the foreskin is, and typically prior to such an unnecessary operation, forcibly retracted, which itself is said to be pretty painful.

Occasionally mistakes happen and death may result, as in the female version, as well as glans amputation which unfortunately in female circumcision is assured, but can also happen by accident in botched male circumcisions. There are other more common evidences of surgical errors less severe such as meatal stenosis, ski-bridges, frenulectomy, malapposition, glans scarring, peyronies disease however they seem to also fall under the radar and perhaps seen as 'acceptable risks.'

As well aids studies try recently to scare/trick people to circumcise, yet Ive read several peer-review style studies contradicting this, as inner-foreskin contains enzymes that break down bacteria trying to invade [acidic environment - as in the analogous purpose in the female organ]. Ive heard hospitals at least in eastern US, and perhaps it depends on the hospital I dont know, really try to get newborns to get circumcised, speaking to parents as if its a given, at each step. Ive heard this from other forums on the subject, so be aware of this in a hospital environment.

On the flip side, phimosis-phobia can also lead to the idea that its needed to remove the foreskin, esp. paraphimosis which may be severe enough I have yet to figure out how to avoid surgery with this particular presentation. Suffice it to say prescribed steroidal creams and a certain expansion device w/balloon may possibly allow sufficient stretch to occur in order to forestall surgery. Several such devices are commercially available.

[clean] links:

http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcision. ... ement.html
http://www.noharmm.org/incidenceworld.htm
http://www.noharmm.org/HGMstats.htm [for now I trust these figures]

there is a fine-touch pressure study however it has diagrams which depict genitalia, so I will omit the link, but it is a study done by Sorrells, Et. Al, British Journal of Urology, International Edition, 22 Oct 2006, 'The Authors Journal Compilation' entitled: "fine-touch pressure thresholds in the adult penis". This link can be found from a pdf on the first website listed, under the 'new information' heading.
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shezmear
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Post: # 9401Post shezmear »

Ya, hospitals, they tried to vaccinate my daughter which she was just born with H-B, the target market for H-B is prostates and drugs users, not to mention the other silly vaccinations that assault the immune system that a mercury based, for one my daughter has never been vaccinated and she is the biggest healthiest child in her kindly garden…

Virtually every guy I know is circumcised apart from one, it’s does seem strange when I think about it to adjust the male genitals, nature usually knows best, I looked at some of those links, there are people having dry sex? Jesus as if sex was not hard enough for some people to enjoy with out making it dry!!!, that’s boarding on sadistic,

Taken from http://www.cirp.org/library/anatomy/sorrells_2007/

In conclusion, circumcision removes the most sensitive parts of the penis and decreases the fine-touch pressure sensitivity of glans penis. The most sensitive regions in the uncircumcised penis are those parts ablated by circumcision. When compared to the most sensitive area of the circumcised penis, several locations on the uncircumcised penis (the rim of the preputial orifice, dorsal and ventral, the frenulum near the ridged band, and the frenulum at the muco-cutaneous junction) that are missing from the circumcised penis were significantly more sensitive.

Arrhh I been robbed!!!! Utter, Utter bastards….

I got a theory, by controlling the sexually of people you can control them better, why not limit the very thing that allows them to have pleasure, if you consider how old the practice is…except these days it has a mind of it’s own, people just run with, it, like in Melbourne they still add fluoride to water, why? Because it’s good for your teeth…. Of course, you put fluoride it the water because you want us all to have good teeth…niiiccceeee…
By their deeds shall you know them.
J.C
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gog
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Post: # 9403Post gog »

hahahahahaha....


NICE!!indeed!!!
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Rezo
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Post: # 9405Post Rezo »

be aware there is a study out there attempting to contradict, in order to keep up the snip quota, I believe is often referred to as oddly enough the 'payne' study [puns anyone - his name it so happens]?

At the moment I dont recall where to find it, but it neglects to test at sensitivity-significant places, and only measures relative heat or something like this.

dont lose hope, it can be [somewhat] reversed! just....takes a while.
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shezmear
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Post: # 9406Post shezmear »

reverse it? I geuss...reverse it really? :o
By their deeds shall you know them.
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Rezo
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Post: # 9408Post Rezo »

Well, it's skin expansion, basically like those limb-traction contraptions to lengthen arms or legs, but, its designed for 'it'. Skin is gently tensioned, under 1 lb on average, over a period of time per day, for x number of years, usually under 5 years. Not recommended for overnight use. The devices are all over the counter, typically via a website address where sold, otherwise some inventive way to construct one can be done.

TNS Recovery complex, made by Skin Medica, is a skin creme whose active ingredient is said to be from neonatal foreskin fibroblasts, aka NFF. [side note: Theres another one called Apligraf]. It was showcased on Oprah, actually. Only thing unclear to me is, other than the ethical loss of it, is whether it is a synthetically copied version of an originally obtained neonatal foreskin, or if it is a continued supply of 'fresh' ones. Couple this with the fact that routine circumcisions in hospitals don't happen for free. Not that I'd disapprove of it any less if it were free. In fact theres money in it! A very interesting article follows that I just found.

http://www.circumcisionquotes.com/index14.html

We are being conditioned !

Rabbinical custom certainly does not help matters, when examining brit peri'ah, for example, a completely invented law. It is said the modern excision is based on this latter custom, itself a result of backlash within Jewish law, against Jews who were required to have glans covered, in order to compete in Greek games [kyno-desme/epi-spasmos], who wanted to compete. The extrapolation is, and I believe it is a reasonable one, the original version of this practice removed much less tissue. Still of course, a removal of sensitive tissue nonetheless, at least, bloodletting, and making marks in the flesh, which contradicts commandments not to do so!

According to Yogi Dr. Swami Shankardevananda Saraswati, MB, BS (Syd), the pituitary is integral, or significantly linked, with the chakra sahasrara [like how other glands with other chakras are]:

http://www.yogamag.net/archives/1981/7j ... atra.shtml

A study on cortisol levels after 'that wonderful operation' - relationship with HPA axis [hypothalamic -pituitary- adrenal axis]:

http://www.cirp.org/library/pain/gunnar1984/

The limbic system 'processes' feeings to some degree; even though we're dealing with the most 'primitive' part of the human body and reproductive instinct, such instinct, when considering tantric philosophy, or chinese medicine's consideration of the governing and conception vessels, and such physiology is also connected w/the [TP known] fluidic body. To sever that connection has to initiate some sort of countermeasure in the body, so why doesn't anything happen? I am reminded of phantom limb syndrome.

Salamanders can regenerate almost anything in their body. Actually its quite fascinating to me. So can planarian flatworms, although they replicate when severed [needless to say, a very different scenario then a salamander]. Robert O. Becker in his book 'the body electric' discusses the weak electromagnetic field requisite for these salamanders to perform such feats, which are absent in humans, for the most part [hint: do a search on fingertips as it relates to this, or, get the book. I highly recommend it!].
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shezmear
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Post: # 9417Post shezmear »

Will Look at all the links, and post back soon....
By their deeds shall you know them.
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ArioK
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My neighboor just got circumcised and he is 25

Post: # 10185Post ArioK »

My neighboor just got circumcised and he is 25. I had to push my truck to the Mechanics the other day at the end of my street. And when I asked for his help he said he would if he could but he said he just had a surgery and when I asked him what happened he let me know that he got circumcised. Talk about pain! he is not a baby but a fully grown man imagine how much that must hurt.
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ptex
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Post: # 10186Post ptex »

There are medical reasons behind circumcision as well as in the case of Paraphimosis.
We need to remember that the actual medical findings of alternatives to circumcision are relatively recent, before in medical faculties the procedure taught to treat the above mentioned problem had circumcision as the only viable immediate alternative.
The best portion of a good man's life is his little nameless unremembered acts of kindness and love.
~William Wordsworth
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Rezo
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"Primum non nocere"

Post: # 10190Post Rezo »

Ptex, forgive my repetitions that may come about, this particular subject obviously concerns/interests me and when you really get into such discussions one may end up repeating things. But there indeed were alternatives in antiquity, not as effective as now in some ways. How rare are these two stricture complications out of curiosity, if I remember isn't it 1-5% or something like that?

In terms of paraphimosis, there is a manual method to put it back [like a telescope collapsing] into position, involving a glans-compression - rather than the taut skin portion being pulled to attempt freeing from shaft constriction. As well, there is the 'Dundee technique.' Reasonable and truly compassionate doctors, who try alternatives to avoid doing the circumcision [others prefer it as a "first" resort], tend to also advise against interim forced retraction...Some even say the most common cause of paraphimosis is iatrogenically induced following catheter insertions, where the prepuce is not properly telescoped forward to its original position. One other interesting piece of information on this regards Celsus and others, especially two paragraphs before the conclusion where the Greek physicians are said to have thought of phimosis not as 18th cent-present physicians, as 'phimosis' or, restriction d/t a too-long [or having] prepuce, but rather, as 'lipodermus' [restriction d/t too short a foreskin]. Was it merely because they tended to respect/worship sometimes, this area of the body more, or because they knew more about certain aspects of anatomy? Read how it says Celsus believed it due to what may be a pathogen, some European doctors believe its BXO [balanitis xerotica obliterans] aka LSA [lichen sclerosus et atrophicus]. So that implicates scar tissue, and does that mean stretching it won't work, or makes it worse? or that it is helpful? I dont know, but I do know skin expansion dermatologically can thin a scar line. I'd guess it works but I'm not totally sure. Maybe I'll ask a dermatologist or read more about dermatology. And obviously, if the pain is too much, of course, one always has a surgical option and definitely shouldn't wait too long to do something about it.

http://www.cirp.org/library/history/hodges1/#n22 [classical greek herbal/liniment nonsurgical phimosis treatments described - do they work? I dont know! but its interesting]

Proper skin expansion in my humble opinion would probably be the best prevention before future recurrences of the above [lateral, circular expansion while in its natural state], as the frenar band / phimotic ring as some call it, muscularly speaking behaves like a rubber band. Likely those who are at risk for para- are also at risk for phimosis also - I'm not positive, but it seems logical, as does the idea that reducing the ring's elasticity somewhat would help stop these situations. I think this option would be more preferable than ridding of the skin, even though there is more effort. Really it depends on your own freedom of choice if you happen to be a male who happens to have 'escaped the knife' as it were. There currently [thanks to modern ingenuity] exist two separate devices for reducing phimosis [opposite problem], one involving a balloon and funnel assembly. The idea is to laterally circumferentially stretch/expand, but gradually, and with gradual increase of tension over time, the sites Ive read seem to say it takes several weeks this way, and that it has helped to cure these people, no surgery. Skin expansion in itself is nothing new; Ive alluded to it earlier and again now, because its not just stretching - it actually creates more adjacent cells, and new [copies of existing] tissue. This is all relatively new [10-12 years widely known] but this particular nonsurgical phimosis treatment above is even newer. Some more elaborate traction devices also exist today [not the same as the ones you may or may not see in your junk mail folder!] to expand shaft skin and 'regrow' what prepuce [Orlah in Hebrew - means 'barrier'] was removed. This is a great improvement over the 'pondus judaeus' back in the days before peria'h [1 Maccabees 1:15]. Relating to that passage and what we now know, I doubt that doing such a thing [responsibly], would upset the Great Spirit, or our teachers out there. If it does someone [on earth] is pulling our leg [!] instead imo.

Shezmear, if you want some verification to your question/thought/comment earlier, look no further than Maimonidies [rabbi moshe ben maimon]:

http://www.infocirc.org/maim.htm

And its interesting that Thomas 53 stresses in favor of 'leaving it alone' [natural/universal law].

I'm not a MD - so it might go against convention to support skin expansion as a 'recovery' method, so - good... I'm in alternative medicine!! In the end its a personal informed decision in the end and should only *be* this way. I also am of the opinion that this practice, like any surgery, leaves a psychological sequelae, some say its merely mental exaggeration or cry for attention, but these same people generally consider circumcision a benefit and not a detriment, and they are free to hold their opinion, as I am mine. I think its something to think about. The dictum "Primum non nocere", First, Do No Harm / Deleterious action, is appropriate. Just as in the turn of the last century to the middle of the last century, removing parts of the colon was thought to improve health, rather than improving dietary intake, or avoiding industrial pollutants/particulates, circumcision was done to 'make it cleaner' and 'curb the sexual appetite' [yeah, that didn't work!]. Of course back then they knew more about beneficial effects of silver, sulphur, and other minerals/plants [some not good, look at the whole picture please] were part of American's diet way more than now.

I believe the main traditions of this practice, not only from the Jewish bible or Islamic practices, but also certain African tribes, are largely based in the "belief" that removing the male prepuce makes him more masculine [a "better" man], and female circumcison would make the girl more female [removing the male protuberant glans structure]. [a "better" woman]. This bleeds over a bit into the area of gender identity, and I first contemplated raising this in the hermaphrodite thread, but felt it wouldn't make much sense in that context, but now I see how it might, in a way at least. I suspect this practice has gone on quite a while, although I wonder if it took place during Mu, hmmm. I'd assume they were enlightened to these things and didn't do that, as they were more in touch with nature. In my book, any truly non-essntial circumcision is a clear act against nature. I'm calling it like I see it. Maybe I've said it before and if I repeat myself, I apologize. But I will not apologize for challenging this particular cultural status quo, as it should be challenged [intellectually]. I failed to bring up complication rates of circumcision earlier, wish I had done so. Also, people like to compare it to female genital mutilation [FGM] and imply that male circumcision pales in comparison, however certain forms of FGM [less totally severe type] mirror male circumcision almost exactly [analogous structural/innervation amputation], namely Type 1 subtype "hoodectomy." I'm glad these discoveries using good science, compassion and plain old creativity, did come about, but, to me the basic concept that it is a vital part that is not to be simply discarded against ones will, is the point here - sure theres extenuating situations when say a horrible accident occurs, its just that the hippocratic oath in much of this seems to have been deemed less necessary.
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