Gospel of Thomas 14

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Lachie
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Gospel of Thomas 14

Post: # 735Post Lachie »

14. Jesus said to them, "If you fast, you will bring sin upon yourselves, and if you pray, you will be condemned, and if you give to charity, you will harm your spirits.

When you go into any region and walk about in the countryside, when people take you in, eat what they serve you and heal the sick among them.

After all, what goes into your mouth will not defile you; rather, it's what comes out of your mouth that will defile you.
Ok, the last parts I understand. Healing sickness = enlightening people. But - if you fast, then you will bring sin upon yourself? Surely, that cannot be taken literally?

Enlighten me, people. :P

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Vesko
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Post: # 736Post Vesko »

Hmmm. The first part is in direct contradiction with Christ from the New Testament.
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Meedan
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Post: # 739Post Meedan »

Could it be that in the first line Jesus was talking about motives? What's important is what is behind the appearances and what is behind the actions. Jesus may have been pointing out that you can do all of those 'good' things, and still be 'bad', since it is the motives behind your actions that matter.
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Post: # 740Post Vesko »

Possibly, but we need contextual information before the statement in the first part to determine the actual underlying reason for it. Any additional info from somewhere? In any case, there is no doubt that the first part is an antithesis to what we should actually do.
And why does the second part seem unconnected? Are the two parts simply disjointed fragments, which the scribe or the translator has merged by mistake?
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Zark
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Re: Gospel of Thomas 14

Post: # 741Post Zark »

Yes, I remember readin this long ago.. and I was troubled by it then.
14. Jesus said to them, "If you fast, you will bring sin upon yourselves, and if you pray, you will be condemned, and if you give to charity, you will harm your spirits.
Jesus did fast. I believe it was for forty days in the desert ?

Jesus did pray to his lord, and he taught others 'The Lords Prayer' at the sermon on the mount

Jesus also did many charitable acts such as healing the sick and feeding the hungry (I don't know about money though). Charity is also an important part of both the Muslim and Christian religions.. and my heart tells me it is not bad to be charitable. Didn't Thao criticise the Catholic church for lavishly spending so much money on themselves, rather than give the money to charity / feeding the hungry.

Some biblical quotes on charity:
"thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself"
"as you would that men should do to you, do you also to them in like manner"
2 Corinthian 9:6 "And this: He who is sowing sparingly, sparingly also shall reap; and he who is sowing in blessings, in blessings also shall reap; 7 each one, according as he doth purpose in heart, not out of sorrow or out of necessity, for a cheerful giver doth God love"

When you go into any region and walk about in the countryside, when people take you in, eat what they serve you and heal the sick among them.

After all, what goes into your mouth will not defile you; rather, it's what comes out of your mouth that will defile you.
This latter part I can agree with. Jesus said this part about what goes in you mouth not defiling you to the pharisees as well. He warned them that they were cleaning the outside of the cup (the body), but failing to clean the inside of the cup. What goes in your mouth defiles your body (ie: your instrument/vehicle/clothing) .. but it does not defile your spirit (ie: the inside of the cup.. the real you!)
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Zark
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Post: # 742Post Zark »

Meedan wrote:Could it be that in the first line Jesus was talking about motives?
Yes, I agree. If you are giving money to charity, but in your heart you prefer to keep the money, then you are being false. A gift should be from the heart.

metta
I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I needed to be. -- Douglas Adams
Kestrel
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Post: # 1309Post Kestrel »

What dose sin mean ?

I know the christian translation for sin, however are there any other ideas on this ?
‘And there we are. When you push away your neighbours, your son or your daughter - if you aren’t always ready to help even those whom you don’t like, you contribute to the disintegration of your civilisation. And this is what is happening on Earth more and more, through hate and violence."
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Post: # 1311Post Zark »

KesTrel wrote:I know the christian translation for sin, however are there any other ideas on this ?
Hi Kestrel, What is the christian translation? I should look it up eh :)

I was told that the Jewish word translated into "a mistake"
I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I needed to be. -- Douglas Adams
Kestrel
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Post: # 1314Post Kestrel »

Honestly. Its simply something you've done wrong in the eyes of (others) "god". Something that the church dosent agree with. Something somone else dosent agree with. Then because of that you're responsible for jesus death. But he still loves you. hmmm
I was told by a freind. Because Jesus died, we dont have to kill a sheep each time we "sin". I make mistakes daily, I cant imagine wher we'd get the sheep from.
Something like that.
‘And there we are. When you push away your neighbours, your son or your daughter - if you aren’t always ready to help even those whom you don’t like, you contribute to the disintegration of your civilisation. And this is what is happening on Earth more and more, through hate and violence."
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Yothu
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Post: # 1323Post Yothu »

Sometime there was an interview with a caplan in the US who was asked if it would make an impact on his religion and community if the existence of aliens would be officialy confirmed. He said, "of course it would because it would raise numerous questions. One would be that if Jesus died for us, did he die for them too?

I did get his point though, but I do not understand why this would be relevant or what's the logic in it. It is the same as "because he died for us we don't have to sacrifice a sheep, or we are somewhat responsible for his death and torment if we sin - but he loves us despite of this..."

Oh man, I mean I was raised in a christian way, but it seems there is a kind of "american way" of christianity. :lol:

No offence to anybody, but to me all these highly theological and "specialized" discussions are redundant.

Just waste of time and assuring that nobody is learning anything from it because everybody keeps himself and others confused with what he or she talks.

Nothing new, of course :wink:
Last edited by Yothu on Sat Mar 11, 2006 8:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Zark
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Re: Gospel of Thomas 14

Post: # 3589Post Zark »

I am reasonably convinced that some of the saying in The Gospel of Thomas are not quite what Jesus said. Even Thao recommended charity :

from pg 146 Thiaoouba Prophecy
‘Sects and religions are a curse on Earth and when you see that the Pope sets aside millions of francs or dollars for his travel, when he could make do with much less, and use what money is available to help countries suffering from famine, you can not persuade me that it is the word of Christ which directs such actions.
‘There is a passage in your Bible that says: ‘It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter Paradise.’


Thao is in fact referring to this passage :

From Mar 10:17-25 :
17 And when He had gone out into the way, one came running up and kneeled to Him, and asked Him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
18 And Jesus said to him, Why do you call Me good? No one is good except one, God.
19 You know the commandments: Do not commit adultery, do not kill, do not steal, do not bear false witness, do not defraud, honor your father and your mother.
20 And he answered and said to Him, Teacher, all these I have observed from my youth.
21 Then Jesus, beholding him, loved him and said to him, One thing you lack. Go, sell whatever you have and give it to the poor, and you shall have treasure in Heaven. And come, take up the cross and follow Me.
22 And he was sad at that saying and went away grieved, for he had great possessions.
23 And Jesus looked around and said to His disciples, How hardly those having riches will enter into the kingdom of God!
24 And the disciples were astonished at His words. But Jesus answering again said to them, Children, how hard it is for those who trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!
25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich one to enter into the kingdom of God.
I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I needed to be. -- Douglas Adams
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bomohwkl
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Post: # 3590Post bomohwkl »

Then Jesus, beholding him, loved him and said to him, One thing you lack. Go, sell whatever you have and give it to the poor, and you shall have treasure in Heaven
If the person sells all his possesion because he thinks that by doing that he can entrer the kingdom of God after death, he is sooo wrong. Spiritual development comes from within. It is important to know why one's want to do charity. For publicity? For power? Or to hide his bad side. Let's speculate what is Bill Gate's "charitable" funding for various researches.
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Post: # 3592Post Robanan »

I believe that helping is one thing and giving charity is another... i.e. you can give money as charity or clothes or anything at all; that simply doesn't mean you have helped the person. In the case that everybody "explicitly" know that a nation is dying of famine the church couldn't at least do something to help?
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Zark
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Post: # 3594Post Zark »

bomohwkl wrote:If the person sells all his possesion because he thinks that by doing that he can entrer the kingdom of God after death, he is sooo wrong. Spiritual development comes from within.
Yes, I understand what you are saying. But it is also our actions that speak for what is in our heart. That is why when one gives to charity, etc you should give in a discreet way, and not go telling everyone about it.

If someone reasons in his mind that he cares for the poor and the ill, but couldn't be bothered to do anything about it, then what does it say about the person.

The counter argument again will be.. 'ahh but that man is caring for them for his own benefit'. Perhaps, and perhaps not. But never the less the man must give up his materialistic thinking and put his spirituality first since he is wealthy and is willing to give up all his possessions. The more possessions you have, the more difficult it is to give them up..

Also, don't think for a second that I believe that when Jesus said 'and you shall have treasure in Heaven' that it meant he would be reborn in his next life on a ninth category planet ! No way ! I certainly agree with you on that bomo :) More likely, since he conquered his materialism to some degree, he would be born on a less materialistic 1st category planet, or perhaps even second category planet.
I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I needed to be. -- Douglas Adams
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Post: # 3989Post Bastian »

Here is someone else giving their version of the same event as in Mar 10:17-25 .. This one points out how it is both unfair and a hypocrisy to amass wealth and yet not give it freely to those who are in need. Unfair because we love ourselves more than we love others, otherwise we would certainly help those who were in dire need - after all that is what we would want if we were in their shoes.
source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/g ... reans.html
(from The Gospel of the Nazoreans)
The other of the two rich men said to him: Master, what good thing must I do that I may live? He said to him: Man, fulfil the law and the prophets. He answered him: That have I done. He said to him: Go and sell all that thou possessest and distribute it among the poor, and then come and follow me. But the rich man then began to scratch his head and it (the saying) pleased him not. And the Lord said to him: How canst though say, I have fulfilled the law and the prophets? For it stands written in the law: Love thy neighbor as thyself; and behold, many of the brethren, sons of Abraham, are begrimed with dirt and die of hunger - and thy house is full of many good things and nothing at all comes forth from it to them! And he turned and said to Simon, his disciple, who was sitting by him: Simon, son of Jona, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven.

(Origen, Commentary on Matthew 15.14 [on Matthew 19:16-30])
This quote comes from a book that no longer exists (as far as we know), the only things left are quotes made from it in old texts such as Origen (203-250 AD)
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