Vegetarian: Good or Bad?

A place to discuss the higher self, chakras, meditation, spiritual healing, and other methods of healing.

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
Zark
Posts: 478
Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2004 12:21 am
Contact:

Post: # 1484Post Zark »

Lachie wrote:How anyone can believe and follow that ridiculous and arbitrary list is beyond me... without even any reason why, they are simply 'unclean'... sorry but i felt like i had to say that.
Yeah, makes you wonder. And of all the craziest books in the Bible Leveticus is right up the top of them if you ask me, along with Revelations ..
"Ours is not to reason why,
Ours is to but do or die."


Oh, hang on I certainly don't believe that. Apparently that is an army saying..
I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I needed to be. -- Douglas Adams
Guest

Post: # 1485Post Guest »

Also surely it is wrong to kill another sentient being whether human or animal either directly or indirectly. I cannot believe the Thiaooubians kill animals for food and also I believe that all animals on Thiaoouba are herbivores. How can killing ever be right?

We must have all seen, on the Discovery Channel for instance, a cheetah chase and kill an impala. How does this make you feel? The cheetah needs to eat but it feels wrong to me. I just cannot believe a similar thing occurs on a ninth category planet.

Maybe the Thiaooubians "grow" their meat/fish somehow. Perhaps it is synthetic. After all Thao said the concentrates offered to Michel were prepared using special methods.

I am vegetarian mainly because I believe it is wrong for us to kill sentient beings. Being vegetarian does not agree with me 100%. I feel I should eat some meat but will not due to my belief that no sentient being should every be intentionally killed by another.

Sandra
User avatar
Zark
Posts: 478
Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2004 12:21 am
Contact:

Post: # 1486Post Zark »

Sandra wrote:We must have all seen, on the Discovery Channel for instance, a cheetah chase and kill an impala. How does this make you feel? The cheetah needs to eat but it feels wrong to me. I just cannot believe a similar thing occurs on a ninth category planet.
Hi sandra,
Yup, good questions :-). I do understand how you feel, and I do strongly sympathise with your view. Nature can be cruel, don't you agree?. Just for fun, try and pretend that you are the Creator, why would you create carnivores in the first place?. I find it to be a useful tool - to consider things from the perspective of the Creator, and ask myself what I would do if I were in his shoes..

Carnivores are, unfortunately, a necessary part of an ecosystem. Without them the populations of rabbits, deer, and other herbivores have a tendrency to explode, and this has disasterous effects on the ecosystem. Carnivores also remove the weakest genes from the population, sadly this too is necessary for the health of the species as a whole.

I am told that a mother Ape will kill its own child if it detects any deformity, this too seems to conform to some kind of Universal Law.
Sandra wrote:Also surely it is wrong to kill another sentient being whether human or animal either directly or indirectly
Well, there are times when killing is necessary.. eg: self defence.

I know I am getting a bit side tracked now, just thinking out loud really.. From the point of view of the Creator, I would say that spiritual evolution is the absolute top priority, whilst death and suffering are a part of our spiritual evolution.
I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I needed to be. -- Douglas Adams
Vesko
Posts: 1086
Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2004 5:13 pm

Post: # 1489Post Vesko »

Sandra, if you think that there are no carnivores on Thiaoouba, then carnivores must be something low and thus bad, from which it would follow that they are mistakes of Nature. Do you think that carnivores are a collosal and widespread failure of the Creator? Also, if there are no carnivores on Thiaoouba, their fauna would be poorer than ours and there would be nothing to check the proliferation of animals. What do you think about that?
To come to terms with the killing that certain animals are doing, you need to realize that it is programmed in them by design and this design has been done by the Creator as part of the ecosystem design. There is built-in functionality in them that they already know upon their birth that forces them to do it because otherwise they will die from hunger and atrophy and which at the same time is needed to exert correcting influence on other members of the ecosystem. To aid them in their purpose, a lot of parts of their bodies are designed as killing devices -- sharp teeth, claws, special bones and strong muscles to run, etc. -- and it is by design. I'm sure you've seen on the Discovery Channel that certain animals such as the lion, the panther, the cheetah, spend a lot of time in their youth in training solely and solely for killing -- and it is by design. As a general rule, such animals also lack the intelligence to procure food by another means, i.e. extracting or synthesizing nutritients necessary for their living. Lack is not negative in this case -- lack is needed for the entire animal and plant ecosystem to function correctly.
Do you REALLY practice meditation? If your REALLY do, do you practice a GOOD method? Are you sure this is REALLY so?
Vesko
Posts: 1086
Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2004 5:13 pm

Post: # 1490Post Vesko »

Lachie wrote:How anyone can believe and follow that ridiculous and arbitrary list is beyond me... without even any reason why, they are simply 'unclean'... sorry but i felt like i had to say that.

Lachie
The reason the reasons are not given is possibly because it had been intended for people who had lived more than 2000 years ago. They could neither understand the real reasons nor it would make sense to include them in a command from an ultimate authority they trusted, namely God or the people of Thiaoouba. If God explained too much, the force of his message would have been diluted and too much homework would have been done for later generations who might actually try to verify the scientific soundness of those commandments.

As it was said on the online page the text was quoted from, Western civilization only recently realized that it is bad to eat fat. That is, nutrition experts of Western civilization, not the general public, of course. Even today billions of people are abusing fat and are dying prematurely, and those people are certainly no wiser to understand the no-fat advice in the list, even though it is now more than 2000 years later. I do not know if the rest of the list makes sense, but it is possible that it is unfalsified and rests on a solid basis.

Important note, added on September 19, 2005:

Be sure to follow the rest of the this topic so that you do not fall into the trap of jumping to conclusions without having considered more information that readily exists out there. When in 2004 I made the original post given above, I did exactly that, unfortunately.

It turns out, based on information from Jewish rabbis, that "Leviticus" does not actually forbid eating fat in general, but only fat from a few animals.

Also, it turns out there is scientific research done indicating that high-fat foods may actually be good. That is covered in subsequent posts of mine, read on and think for yourself.
Do you REALLY practice meditation? If your REALLY do, do you practice a GOOD method? Are you sure this is REALLY so?
Vesko
Posts: 1086
Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2004 5:13 pm

Post: # 1491Post Vesko »

My current stance on food is that one should not eat heavy animal products often and should eat mostly light plant foods instead, but that the carefully dosaged intake of the former will do no harm -- on the contrary, it may have definite benefits, if one lives a strictly positive life, does meditation, concentration, yoga and such spiritual training. In addition, the amount that we eat must not be underestimated. Instead of stuffing ourselves with food, be it of plant origin only, it would be better to use our energy more efficiently and avoid stretching our bellies ;).

Important note, added on September 18, 2005:

It is important to note that the so-called non-analogue vitamin B12 can be found only in animal foods. There are other nutrients, such as vitamin A, that may be difficult to obtain in adequate amounts from plants. Of course, you could rely on artificial supplements with their own advantages and disadvantages.

In any case, it is crucial to everyone's health to seriously research diet information (and of course not only! ;)) on one's own, even if it has nothing to do with one's professional job!

I am currently considering information that may prove that vegetarianism and veganism are far from optimal, and are actually harmful. A site, http://www.theomnivore.com, that I inform of in a subsequent post on this topic, contains much information about that.
Do you REALLY practice meditation? If your REALLY do, do you practice a GOOD method? Are you sure this is REALLY so?
User avatar
Yothu
Posts: 439
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2004 11:46 am
Location: Europe
Contact:

Post: # 1493Post Yothu »

Yes, definitely. One good method to consume calories without having a full stomach is mixing a high-proteine drink: put powdered milk (or real milk as you prefer), ice water, eggs, eggshells, bananas, vegetable oil, peanut flour and chocolate icecream in a shaker and mix it.
This will give you a lot of energy and you won't be stuffed with food and thus able to continue your physical and/or mental work. :)
If you do what you've always done, you'll get what you always got.
User avatar
Zark
Posts: 478
Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2004 12:21 am
Contact:

Post: # 1494Post Zark »

Vesko wrote:if you think that there are no carnivores on Thiaoouba (..)
hi vesko !
Wow, if it wasn't for this forum I would never have been asking myself if they are all vegetarians on Thiaoouba! It's really great to have a variety of opinions here folks :-). I was a bit worried about what I wrote last night, it seemed so cynical towards Nature... hmmm.

The only carnivorous animal on Thiaoouba that I can think of in the book (apart from *perhaps* the Thiaooubans) would be the Dolphins. But you never know, maybe they are all vegetarian Dolphins !?
I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I needed to be. -- Douglas Adams
User avatar
Zark
Posts: 478
Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2004 12:21 am
Contact:

Post: # 1495Post Zark »

Sandra wrote:I just cannot believe a similar thing occurs on a ninth category planet (..)Being vegetarian does not agree with me 100%. I feel I should eat some meat but will not due to my belief that no sentient being should every be intentionally killed by another..

Maybe you are right, perhaps the roles of death and suffering have served their purpose by the time you reach a ninth category planet. Who knows?...

When you are saying that being vegetarian doesn't agree with you 100%, I am guessing you mean health-wise ??

I have considered becoming vegetarian in the past, but right now it would be extremely difficult for me. I have an autoimmune disorder which is quite serious. I have learnt from the experience of others that I must avoid almost entirely any legumes, grains, dairy, most nuts and other starchy foods. When I follow such a diet I can virtually clear all inflammation from my body. I am sure you will find it extremely difficult to believe that this helps, but I assure you it does as I have validated the truth of it over and over again.

Also... I can't help but think that us males like to eat meat, heeheee so maybe we are biased :P. Especially me with the kind of diet I must follow, which as you can imagine has plenty of meat.

hey, its good to have a feminine voice here to balance the yin and the yang :-)
z
I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I needed to be. -- Douglas Adams
User avatar
Marcus
Posts: 211
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2004 10:59 am
Location: Perth, Australia
Contact:

Post: # 1496Post Marcus »

We must have all seen, on the Discovery Channel for instance, a cheetah chase and kill an impala. How does this make you feel? The cheetah needs to eat but it feels wrong to me. I just cannot believe a similar thing occurs on a ninth category planet.
In coversations with people who know Michel Desmarquet, I can say that there are no man eating animals on Thiaoouba.

But of course logic tells me that within all physical worlds there is natures law, in this case an ecosystem. That said, it's feasible to say animals kill each other on Thiaoouba, it has to happen.

How do you feel about an insect being devoured by one of the beautiful birds described in the book?
It aint about who you love but do you love?

Michael Franti/Spearhead.
User avatar
Zark
Posts: 478
Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2004 12:21 am
Contact:

Post: # 1497Post Zark »

Vesko wrote:If God explained too much, the force of his message would have been diluted and too much homework would have been done for later generations who might actually try to verify the scientific soundness of those commandments.
Yes, that is something I have thought about. Perhaps that is what was meant by "Believing is not enough... You need to KNOW". That although we have great trust in the Thiaooubans, we should (where possible) also prove to ourselves the Truth of what they have told us. ??

I seem to remember a parable about this, but I couldn't find it. oh well.
I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I needed to be. -- Douglas Adams
Vesko
Posts: 1086
Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2004 5:13 pm

Post: # 1500Post Vesko »

Marcus wrote:We must have all seen, on the Discovery Channel for instance, a cheetah chase and kill an impala. How does this make you feel? The cheetah needs to eat but it feels wrong to me. I just cannot believe a similar thing occurs on a ninth category planet.

In coversations with people who know Michel Desmarquet, I can say that there are no man eating animals on Thiaoouba.
Thank you for sharing this. I think you actually told me that some time ago but I've forgotten it :(.
Actually it makes a lot of sense not to have man-eating animals on such a planet. Since such humans would have nothing to learn from dealing with savage beasts, and no animal naturally needs to eat humans (that's on any planet), it makes a lot of sense.
But of course logic tells me that within all physical worlds there is natures law, in this case an ecosystem. That said, it's feasible to say animals kill each other on Thiaoouba, it has to happen.

How do you feel about an insect being devoured by one of the beautiful birds described in the book?
Actually, there are herbivore birds on Earth, so perhaps, as Sandra said, those insects, birds, etc. self-regulate on Thiaoouba? But how? How do you stop an insect from reproducing? By programming it so that it must not reproduce before the global numbers of insects fall to a predetermined level? That would be cruel and limiting as killing, so you wouldn't have avoided killing, you would only have less variety of life forms.
Do you REALLY practice meditation? If your REALLY do, do you practice a GOOD method? Are you sure this is REALLY so?
Bastian
Posts: 225
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 11:32 pm
Location: Sydney, Australia

Post: # 1507Post Bastian »

You know, the list of animals *seems* to favour eating animals that are herbivores and avoiding animals that are either carnivores or omnivores. So as to minimise contact with any kind of creature that might eat from a rotting dead carcass (since these are filled with disease).
Vesko wrote:Leviticus 11:1-47 "Now the LORD spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying to them,
2 "Speak to the children of Israel, saying, 'These [are] the animals which you may eat among all the animals that [are] on the earth:
3 'Among the animals, whatever divides the hoof, having cloven hooves [and] chewing the cud -- that you may eat.
4 'Nevertheless these you shall not eat among those that chew the cud or those that have cloven hooves: the camel, because it chews the cud but does not have cloven hooves, is unclean to you;
5 'the rock hyrax, because it chews the cud but does not have cloven hooves, [is] unclean to you;
6 'the hare, because it chews the cud but does not have cloven hooves, [is] unclean to you;
7 'and the swine, though it divides the hoof, having cloven hooves, yet does not chew the cud, [is] unclean to you.
8 'Their flesh you shall not eat, and their carcasses you shall not touch. They [are] unclean to you.

9 These you may eat of all that [are] in the water: whatever in the water has fins and scales, whether in the seas or in the rivers -- that you may eat.
10 'But all in the seas or in the rivers that do not have fins and scales, all that move in the water or any living thing which [is] in the water, they [are] an abomination to you.
11 'They shall be an abomination to you; you shall not eat their flesh, but you shall regard their carcasses as an abomination.
12 'Whatever in the water does not have fins or scales -- that [shall be] an abomination to you.
13 And these you shall regard as an abomination among the birds; they shall not be eaten, they [are] an abomination: the eagle, the vulture, the buzzard,
14 'the kite, and the falcon after its kind;
15 'every raven after its kind,
16 'the ostrich, the short-eared owl, the sea gull, and the hawk after its kind;
17 'the little owl, the fisher owl, and the screech owl;
18 'the white owl, the jackdaw, and the carrion vulture;
19 'the stork, the heron after its kind, the hoopoe, and the bat.

20 All flying insects that creep on [all] fours [shall be] an abomination to you.
21 'yet these you may eat of every flying insect that creeps on [all] fours: those which have jointed legs above their feet with which to leap on the earth.
22 'These you may eat: the locust after its kind, the destroying locust after its kind, the cricket after its kind, and the grass hopper after its kind.
23 'But all [other] flying insects which have four feet [shall be] an abomination to you.
24 By these you shall become unclean; whoever touches the carcass of any of them shall be unclean until evening;
25 'whoever carries part of the carcass of any of them shall wash his clothes and be unclean until evening:
26 '[The carcass] of any animal which divides the foot, but is not cloven-hoofed or does not chew the cud, [is] unclean to you. Everyone who touches it shall be unclean.
27 'And whatever goes on its paws, among all kinds of animals that go on [all] fours, those [are] unclean to you. Whoever touches any such carcass shall be unclean until evening.

28 'Whoever carries [any such] carcass shall wash his clothes and be unclean until evening. It [is] unclean to you.
29 These also [shall be] unclean to you among the creeping things that creep on the earth: the mole, the mouse, and the large lizard after its kind;
30 'the gecko, the monitor lizard, the sand reptile, the sand lizard, and the chameleon." (...)
42 'Whatever crawls on its belly, whatever goes on [all] fours, or whatever has many feet among all creeping things that creep on the earth -- these you shall not eat, for they [are] an abomination. (...)
44 'For I [am] the LORD your God. You shall therefore consecrate yourselves, and you shall be holy; for I [am] holy. Neither shall you defile yourselves with any creeping thing that creeps on the earth.
45 'For I [am] the LORD who brings you up out of the land of Egypt, to be your God. You shall therefore be holy, for I [am] holy. (...)
Leviticus 7:26 "Moreover you shall not eat any blood in any of your dwellings, [whether] of bird or beast."
(...)
Vesko
Posts: 1086
Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2004 5:13 pm

Post: # 1510Post Vesko »

Very good observation, Zark. Thank you. Then the list is not senseless at all.
Do you REALLY practice meditation? If your REALLY do, do you practice a GOOD method? Are you sure this is REALLY so?
Vesko
Posts: 1086
Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2004 5:13 pm

Post: # 1790Post Vesko »

Surprise!

I've mentioned the canine teeth argument of Michel from the audio interviews, but re-listening it I found he actually gave the ultimate answer (according to what he saw during his abduction). That seems to be an excellent conclusion of this topic (at least for the time being):

Interviewer (Meanwell): "Is it acceptable in terms of Universal Law to eat meat or shall we all be vegetarians?"

Michel: "Everybody does what they want to do. Those people over there [the Thiaooubans] don't really eat meat. They eat sort of sea-weed and sea-food, but to eat meat, if you look at the term of eating meat to not kill an animal, okay, that is a divergence of point of view, because you have different things there. I can tell you something, if we look at Natural Law, you have a lion eating an antilope, or a dog eating a rabbit, so you can tell me also of course human beings shouldn't kill, etc. Now, one thing is, in your physical body you have canine teeth?"

Interviewer: "Yes."

Michel: "By creation, you have grind teeth for the grain. If you are comfortable eating half meat, half vegetables, that's good for you. If you are comfortable, many people are comfortable to eat only vegetables, and I think they are right to eat only vegetables. Some people, they are comfortable to eat fish, to eat meat if they are in need of that because I know myself, some people who really need to eat meat because if they don't eat meat they become weak."

Interviewer: "Yes, I am."

Michel: "So that's to everybody is, as we say before, different, and that is a little detail, I think. Of course, if we think about the poor animal we kill, well, it's not good to eat meat, but that is, well, there's no rule..."
Do you REALLY practice meditation? If your REALLY do, do you practice a GOOD method? Are you sure this is REALLY so?
Post Reply