Vegetarian: Good or Bad?

A place to discuss the higher self, chakras, meditation, spiritual healing, and other methods of healing.

Moderator: Moderators

Bastian
Posts: 225
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 11:32 pm
Location: Sydney, Australia

Post: # 4267Post Bastian »

This is kinda cute, a friend sent me a link to the "Meatrix" (not matrix but meat-rix)
http://www.themeatrix.com/

(edit: Marcus has posted this a long time ago and I had not realised it.)
Last edited by Bastian on Thu Sep 01, 2005 8:51 am, edited 2 times in total.
"All things derive their life from it [Tao] All things return to it, and it contains them." -- Tao Teh Ching
Vesko
Posts: 1086
Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2004 5:13 pm

Post: # 4444Post Vesko »

In an earlier post about a year ago, I quoted a list of foods from the Old Testament in the Bible, the "Leviticus" book. The list quoted was actually from the page http://godkind.org/clean-foods.html, and it happens that the page had, and still has, the following comment:
Virtually everyone, NOW, realizes scientifically, that eating the fat of animals isn't healthy. For decades, though, this was ignored by a large percentage of the world's western population.
Yesterday, I read the entire contents of the original article "The Myths of Vegetarianism", http://chetday.com/vegmyths.htm, that bomohwkl supplied us and started this topic with. The author holds that it is not true that "Meat and saturated fat consumption have increased in the 20th century, with a corresponding increase in heart disease and cancer". Note there is a responding article called 'A Response to Stephen Byrnes' "The Myths of Vegetarianism"' by a vegetarian, at http://www.energygrid.com/food/2002/06a ... yrnes.html that is definitely worth reading and considering, too.

My curiousity has been piqued and I remembered that my grandmother, a religious Christian, who is currently 91 and fairly healthy and active for her years, used to eat considerable amounts of saturated animal fat when she was younger, because it had been considered good in the past, whereas as you know the dominant view today is that most types of saturated animal fat are bad for our health.

It occurred to me to search about fat and the Bible. I found the following on http://www.ou.org/torah/ti/5764/tzav64.htm, a site by Jewish rabbis. "Leviticus" is part of the Torah, an important set of writings in Judaism, and the former is also part of the Christian Bible.
In the course of teaching about the sacrifices, the Torah also delineates certain general rules governing food. Among these are the prohibitions against eating blood and the fat called chelev:

And Hashem spoke to Moshe saying: Speak to the Children of Israel, saying: All suet (CHELEV) of ox, or sheep, or goat you shall not eat. And the suet (CHELEV) of an animal that dies of itself (NEVELAH) and the suet of a fatally injured animal (TEREFAH) may be used for any work, although you shall not in any way eat it. Because anyone who eats suet (CHELEV) from the animal of which he offers a fire-offering to Hashem, the soul that eats shall be severed from its nation. And all blood you shall not eat, in all your dwellings, of fowl and of animals. Any soul that eats any blood, that soul shall be severed from its nation (Vayikra 7:22-27).

Chelev refers to the outer layer of fat, also called suet. The prohibited chelev is the abdominal fat on the stomach, kidney and flank. It can be peeled away like a skin. When kosher meat is purchased the chelev has already been removed. The rest of the fat, which is permissible, is called shuman.

The Torah prohibits the chelev from the animal of which he offers a fire-offering to Hashem.

At first glance, this seems to restrict the prohibition to the chelev taken from animals actually offered on the Altar. However, it refers to the types of animals that can be offered, and whose chelev is offered, namely the three species in the verse:

ox, or sheep, or goat.

Therefore, while chelev is often spoken of together with the prohibition against consuming blood, the comparison to blood is not exact. While the blood of all permitted species – “of fowl and of animals” – is forbidden, only the chelev of “ox, or sheep, or goat” is forbidden.

The prohibition against chelev applies whether or not there is an active Temple, and it applies both in the land of Israel as well as outside it.

The fats of all other permitted species, whether non-domesticated animals (e.g., deer), fish, fowl or kosher locusts, is permitted.
So, the conclusion that, according to the Bible, consuming fat is bad in general is incorrect.

I started digging for more information, and came across http://www.theomnivore.com. I must say, it presents a lot of reasoned information, and one of the best things I like is that it tries to urge you to check the information from the original sources yourself as far as you can, not listen blindly to the second-hand information and conclusions of the author, something which many experts do not urge others to do. There are many articles on the site, and I have spent several hours scratching its surface. I particularly like what the author says with regard to taking time to read full papers of medical journals (the emphasis in bold is mine) and thinking for yourself. From http://www.theomnivore.com/Cordain.html:
I make the following appeal to all those young student minds that still have some semblance of independent cognitive function remaining inside them--as you embark on your tertiary education, be aware that it is highly geared towards making you a faithful and obedient servant of the reigning health and medical monopoly. Oh, sure when you establish your own practice and plunk down the first repayment on your new Lexus, you may well feel that you are truly the master of your domain. Don't kid yourself. As long as you fail to verify the claims of the medical hierarchy for yourself; as long as you merely glance over the abstracts in journals instead of reading the full text; as long as drug companies remain your primary source of drug information; as long as food and drug companies control the flow of information emanating from the health associations, institutes, and organizations that you look to for professional guidance, then you remain simply a puppet of our disgustingly corrupt orthodoxy.
The truly valuable thing is that the advice applies directly or analogously to any field, not just medicine.

Be sure to investigate the entire site, there are loads of information. There is a section covering specifically vegetarianism (and veganism), http://www.theomnivore.com/vegetarianism.html, including an article about the ethics of eating meat, http://www.theomnivore.com/ethics_of_eating_meat.html.

So if you have not, go study the site, study opposing viewpoints, official information and studies directly from original sources, not second hand-ones. It is difficult and time-consuming, but what other choice do we have if we are to find the real truth, whatever it might be?
Do you REALLY practice meditation? If your REALLY do, do you practice a GOOD method? Are you sure this is REALLY so?
Teda
Posts: 58
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2005 3:33 pm
Location: Australia, Blissful Earth

Post: # 4876Post Teda »

What a wonderful thread! I have just finished reading a book called "We want to live" about eating raw animal products including raw fats. Author Aajonus Vonderplanitz was a vegan for couple of years until introduced to raw rabbit meat caught by a pack of coyotes, very interesting, not for me though. As a vegetarian for 19 years, I don’t think I could bring myself to eat raw meat, maybe raw fish. You can read some of his chapters here http://www.karlloren.com/aajonus/
Vesko wrote:As a general rule, such animals also lack the intelligence to procure food by another means, i.e. extracting or synthesizing nutritients necessary for their living. Lack is not negative in this case -- lack is needed for the entire animal and plant ecosystem to function correctly.
Yes, I agree, however, carnivores attack herbivores primarily for their stomach where nutrients are highly concentrated. Maybe the correct word is ‘instinctive’ rather than ‘lack of intelligence’. Wildlife is more in tune with the ecosystem than humans. Most of us seem to have lost touch with our instinctive nature – intelligence? We cook our food. That is not instinctive. In light of a reverse evolution experience, I saw no measure of intelligence. Just is. Which is sort of what you’re saying, right?
Turn your face to the sun and the shadows fall behind you.

- Maori proverb
Teda
Posts: 58
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2005 3:33 pm
Location: Australia, Blissful Earth

Post: # 4877Post Teda »

Vesko wrote:It is important to note that the so-called non-analogue vitamin B12 can be found only in animal foods. There are other nutrients, such as vitamin A, that may be difficult to obtain in adequate amounts from plants. Of course, you could rely on artificial supplements with their own advantages and disadvantages.

In any case, it is crucial to everyone's health to seriously research diet information (and of course not only! ;)) on one's own, even if it has nothing to do with one's professional job!

I am currently considering information that may prove that vegetarianism and veganism are far from optimal, and are actually harmful. A site, http://www.theomnivore.com, that I inform of in a subsequent post on this topic, contains much information about that.
Where do herbivores get their B12 and Vitamin A (and Vitamin D)?

Experience has taught me not to take in information based on fear, particularly areas of interests, preventing me from digging further.

Over the years, I’ve seen valid information being left out, almost deliberately (probably not all of them though), and sooner or later, (maybe 10 years as I have seen) people will begin to learn about the missing information that would have inspired them to eat in a certain way, animals or no animal products. Depends on what their bodies needs. For me, truth can be contemplated by looking closely at nature. Animal life is simple. We don't have to be a scientist to figure that out. :wink:
Turn your face to the sun and the shadows fall behind you.

- Maori proverb
Vesko
Posts: 1086
Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2004 5:13 pm

Post: # 4878Post Vesko »

Teda wrote:What a wonderful thread! I have just finished reading a book called "We want to live" about eating raw animal products including raw fats. Author Aajonus Vonderplanitz was a vegan for couple of years until introduced to raw rabbit meat caught by a pack of coyotes, very interesting, not for me though. As a vegetarian for 19 years, I don’t think I could bring myself to eat raw meat, maybe raw fish. You can read some of his chapters here http://www.karlloren.com/aajonus/
Thanks for bringing up that subject. Ah, that's another thing to try to wrap our minds around! I have a not very educated opinion about it perhaps, so I'd better read up this (and more things) on the subject before commenting, except one thing: I've skimmed the Frequently Asked Questions (http://www.karlloren.com/diet/p80.htm), and noticed that the author claims the "digestive tract of a human is not set up for the cellulose in vegetables". He also claims "VEGETABLES and MEAT make a bad combination". Why I disagree with both points -- I do on the basis of my experience. I find that I have no problems eating normal amounts of salad, and also when I eat salad with meat, it helps my digestion. The latter is noticeably worse if I eat only meat. That meat and salad make an excellent combination is beyond any doubt to me. (I will read the book in full when I have the time.)
Teda wrote:
Vesko wrote:As a general rule, such animals also lack the intelligence to procure food by another means, i.e. extracting or synthesizing nutritients necessary for their living. Lack is not negative in this case -- lack is needed for the entire animal and plant ecosystem to function correctly.
Yes, I agree, however, carnivores attack herbivores primarily for their stomach where nutrients are highly concentrated. Maybe the correct word is ‘instinctive’ rather than ‘lack of intelligence’. Wildlife is more in tune with the ecosystem than humans. Most of us seem to have lost touch with our instinctive nature – intelligence? We cook our food. That is not instinctive. In light of a reverse evolution experience, I saw no measure of intelligence. Just is. Which is sort of what you’re saying, right?
They do it by instinct and they have intelligence by way of their instincts (just to know better what we are talking about, let's define instinct: an an inborn inclination and ability to do a particular activity and thus solve a particular problem. So I think one could say instincts are inborn intelligence.). This intelligence is restricted in comparison with humans. Restricted in the sense that the animals are unable to learn to do as many new activities as a human is able to. Indeed, wildlife is more in tune with the ecosystem than humans, and it follows from that restricted intelligence -- animals are unable to think of as many ways to violate the nature as we are able to.

I'm interested to know why do you think that cooking food is not instinctive for humans. While all creatures have common instincts, they vary from creature to creature. I would think our body is not that equipped to deal continually with raw meat and raw plants, and thus it is not natural for us to continually eat raw food, but I don't think I can present that argument compellingly at the moment.
Where do herbivores get their B12 and Vitamin A (and Vitamin D)?
B12 non-analogue: From bacteria in their special digestive system that we (humans) also have, but in our case those bacteria do not produce sufficient amounts. http://www.veganhealth.org/b12/animal and http://www.veganhealth.org/b12/int.

Vitamin D: animals usually get much more sunlight than we do (Vitamin D is produced by the animal and human skin in response to ultraviolet light). The article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_D says: "Only a few foods naturally contain significant amounts of vitamin D, including: fish oils [...] fatty fish [...] one whole egg [...] beef liver [...] one (100% RDA) vitamin pill".

Vitamin A: from carotenoids in plants (the animal equivalent is called "retinyl ester" /according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retinol/). I couldn't find reliable information how regular is this deficiency in vegan humans, but I find that grass, leaves, etc. (green feed) contains beta-carotene, which is then converted to Vitamin A. Such conversion happens in vegan humans, too, but I reason that since humans eat less green feed (or "salad" ;)) they have to be extra careful if they are vegan or vegetarian and do not have animal sources of this vitamin. Someone please correct or add to this.
Experience has taught me not to take in information based on fear, particularly areas of interests, preventing me from digging further.
Yes, don't just follow information, but also don't discard it without studying it carefully yourself. There are many people with vested interests in the fields of both meat and plant production, one should be very careful.
Over the years, I’ve seen valid information being left out, almost deliberately (probably not all of them though), and sooner or later, (maybe 10 years as I have seen) people will begin to learn about the missing information that would have inspired them to eat in a certain way, animals or no animal products. Depends on what their bodies needs. For me, truth can be contemplated by looking closely at nature. Animal life is simple. We don't have to be a scientist to figure that out. :wink:
You are right. Beside what you said, I'd add that carefully monitoring oneself -- how you feel after a particular type of meal, and altering the meal next time on the basis of the feedback that the body and mind provide you with, is the other great way. In fact perhaps you already said that, since we are part of nature. If one is able to monitor and study oneself (and the rest of nature of course), one will know what is good for oneself, regardless of having the title of a scientist.
Do you REALLY practice meditation? If your REALLY do, do you practice a GOOD method? Are you sure this is REALLY so?
Teda
Posts: 58
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2005 3:33 pm
Location: Australia, Blissful Earth

Post: # 5114Post Teda »

Vesko wrote:I'm interested to know why do you think that cooking food is not instinctive for humans. While all creatures have common instincts, they vary from creature to creature. I would think our body is not that equipped to deal continually with raw meat and raw plants, and thus it is not natural for us to continually eat raw food, but I don't think I can present that argument compellingly at the moment.
Ok maybe I should have said ‘it’s not instinctive for me to cook food’. People who eat cooked food especially animal products smell offensive to me and that is why I think cooking is neither instinctive nor an intelligence thing to do. Eating raw food is very sustainable, it provides greater health in all aspects of life and it is much easier to distinguish which food to eat. I'm not sure about raw animal products yet because I have not had a hunger for it.

The saying ‘we are what we eat’ took me many years to understand. It doesn’t matter whether we are a vegan, vegetarian, or omnivorous, or where we get our B12, Vitamin A and D, it depends on our readiness to move on to the next level. Sometimes, it is hard to see how the food affects us.

Here are some quotes from The Essene Gospel of Peace
http://www.essene.com/GospelOfPeace/peace1.html
"It is the fire which blazes outside your body, which is hotter than your blood. With that fire of death you cook your foods in your homes and in your fields. I tell you truly, it is the same fire which destroys your foods and your bodies, even as the fire of malice, which ravages your thoughts, ravages your spirits. For your body is that which you eat, and your spirit is that which you think. Eat nothing, therefore, which a stronger fire than the fire of life has killed. Wherefore, prepare and eat all fruits of trees, and all grasses of the fields, and afl milk of beasts good for eating. For all these are fed and ripened by the fire of life; all are the gift of the angels of our Earthly Mother. But eat nothing to which only the fire of death gives savor, for such is of Satan."

"So eat always from the table of God: the fruits of the trees, the grain and grasses of the field, the milk of beasts, and the honey of bees. For everything beyond these is of Satan, and leads by the way of sins and of diseases unto death. But the foods which you eat from the abundant table of God give strength and youth to your body, and you will never see diseases For the table of God fed Methuselah of old, and I tell you truly, if you live even as he lived, then will the God of the living give you also long life upon the earth as was his.

"Cook not, neither mix all things one with another, lest your bowels become as steaming bogs. For I tell you truly, this is abominable in the eyes of the Lord”
In the book TP, Thiaooubians ate very lightly, not three meals a day. Their foods were light in weight as well as colour, texture and flavour. They eat only enough to nourish their body while keeping their mind clear and alert thus enabling them to focus on their spirituality.

If interested, you can learn more about ‘Raw Fresh Produce vs. Cooked Food’ here
http://www.living-foods.com/articles/ra ... oduce.html

That’s all I can say for now. Sorry I took long to reply to your question Vesko.

Cheers
Teda
Turn your face to the sun and the shadows fall behind you.

- Maori proverb
opitekk
Posts: 3
Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2006 2:01 am
Location: Michigan, USA

Post: # 5206Post opitekk »

Hey everyone,

I read the 1st page and skipped everything else, sorry in advance.

I have just started my vegetarian diet (1 week) and i do feel much more healthier, I can think better, and I work better.

I don’t think its wrong to eat meat. Like everyone said TP's "fish" and Jesus ate.........
So yeah it’s not wrong BUTTTT

Everything is so poisoned nowadays. The air is poisoned the rainwater is toxic the fish have lots of mercury in them.

Knowing this I forced myself to change my diet. These things would have been okay to eat if I lived back in the day or on a unpolluted planet.....

This is my reasoning and not everyone else’s and that is beautiful!

Opi~TeKK
dloheb
Posts: 131
Joined: Tue May 09, 2006 4:39 pm

Post: # 6548Post dloheb »

No one except the last post has brought up the point of toxins. . .

I thought most of you have read The Joy of Perfect Health?
Vesko
Posts: 1086
Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2004 5:13 pm

Post: # 6549Post Vesko »

The first post on the topic by Bomohwkl explicitly refers to them, too. Other posters will say for sure, but I think they are aware of the toxin problem. I think it's just that so far, the question whether or not even the cleanest meat is suited to be eaten by humans has been more interesting.
Do you REALLY practice meditation? If your REALLY do, do you practice a GOOD method? Are you sure this is REALLY so?
dloheb
Posts: 131
Joined: Tue May 09, 2006 4:39 pm

Post: # 6552Post dloheb »

Vesko wrote:The first post on the topic by Bomohwkl explicitly refers to them, too. Other posters will say for sure, but I think they are aware of the toxin problem. I think it's just that so far, the question whether or not even the cleanest meat is suited to be eaten by humans has been more interesting.
Oh I see thanks.
survivor
Posts: 288
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2006 5:32 am
Location: melbourne, Australia

Post: # 6703Post survivor »

Lets not forget, the Kangaroo (native to Australia) was imported from Bakaratini to be consumed.


Also, these days, many parts of Earth's vegetation is/has been polluted with/by chemicals.



P.S The pig and Dodo bird were also imported.
an act against {free will} is an act against nature
dloheb
Posts: 131
Joined: Tue May 09, 2006 4:39 pm

Post: # 6711Post dloheb »

Yeah that's true according to TP, however as to the whole "moral" idea or whatever, they brought them but were only level one category people too, and it wasn't necessarily the right thing to do. I'm not saying it's wrong either .. .

As for vegetables being polluted, that is true, but that would only make meat exponentially worse as, from my understanding, the pollutants concentrate up the heirarchy. . .

it's similar to someone who smokes and say they know it isn't good, but that breathing the air is dangerous for your health too, and so there is no point in avoiding smoking. It's unfortunate one cannot escape the poor decisions of the whole completely, but that doesn't mean some decisions aren't better than others... the logic of the smoker in my example is certainly flawed.

oh, and your avatar:

-do you find the coloured version of the cross excercise easier than the black one that's in TFoC?

-yes very nice aura ;) :p
survivor
Posts: 288
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2006 5:32 am
Location: melbourne, Australia

Post: # 6733Post survivor »

dloheb wrote: oh, and your avatar:

-do you find the coloured version of the cross excercise easier than the black one that's in TFoC?
At first; the black'n'white, But now, either-either.
dloheb wrote:-yes very nice aura ;) :p
Cheers, thanks. :)
an act against {free will} is an act against nature
Essene
Posts: 164
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2007 8:28 am

Post: # 9015Post Essene »

This also seemed to me a contradiction when Jesus (a thiaoouban) specifically says eating meat is wrong when the thiaooubans do so back on their planet. I wish they had covered the subject more and clarified it in the book.

From what I've seen and read in these posts I have come to the conclusion that eating raw uncooked foods togethor with the odd fish now and then seems a good choice.

I know that Tom advocates a vegan diet and I remember a brief conversation about it with him. I think he said that the body will begin to make it's own nutrients if needed but that he gets his B12 from vegemite, also spirulina would help a lot.

I think if you have access to a farm from which you can grow all your produce, eat it raw, eat spirulina, eat vegemite, then meat can be avoided. Otherwise it might be healthier to eat moderate amounts to eat.

It is hard to know what to think on this subject....

Another thing I am uncertain with is the moral issue, I have met some meat eating spiritual people who claim that animals were put here for the purpose of being eaten and therefore it is not wrong but I also don't think animals are queing up outside the slaughter house to be killed and that it is wrong to inflict pain and take away the life of sentient beings if it isn't totally necessary.

I know the Essenes would rather die than eat meat, let alone anything that they did not work to grow and they seemed to live well beyond a 100 with perfect health.

Again I wish the subject had been dealt with thoroughly in the book to save all this debate.
Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power.

If knowledge can create problems, it is not through ignorance that we can solve them.
Essene
Posts: 164
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2007 8:28 am

Post: # 9016Post Essene »

Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power.

If knowledge can create problems, it is not through ignorance that we can solve them.
Post Reply