Judging Others

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Vesko
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Judging Others

Post: # 4338Post Vesko »

trumpet_is_cool wrote:"If you judge people, you have no time to love them."  Mother Theresa
One crucial caveat -- it is not true we ought not to judge others. It is only bad to judge them, as everything else, in a condemning or otherwise negative sense, and I think most likely Mother Teresa had meant actually that. The following is attributed to Christ, according to the Bible: "Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment." All too often people judge by appearances, and this is the kind of false judgement that ought not to be done.
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Alisima
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Post: # 4339Post Alisima »

Vesko wrote:
trumpet_is_cool wrote:"If you judge people, you have no time to love them."  Mother Theresa
One crucial caveat -- it is not true we ought not to judge others.
The quote never said we should not judge people, nor that judging is in any way bad. You are distorting the quote here. The quote said that you can't judge someone and love them at the same time. For judging implies a non-loving attitude, and loving implies a non-judging attitude.
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Vesko
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Post: # 4340Post Vesko »

Alisima wrote:
Vesko wrote:
trumpet_is_cool wrote:"If you judge people, you have no time to love them."  Mother Theresa
One crucial caveat -- it is not true we ought not to judge others.
The quote never said we should not judge people, nor that judging is in any way bad. You are distorting the quote here. The quote said that you can't judge someone and love them at the same time. For judging implies a non-loving attitude, and loving implies a non-judging attitude.
I have not distorted anything. You can judge someone and love them at the same time, because righteous judgement means to be just and justice is love. The quote does advise against judging people and that judging is bad, since not having time to love is bad. Besides, love does not imply a non-judging attitude, on the contrary, true love implies proper judgement. A lack of proper judgement in anything is blindness, i.e. bad.
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Alisima
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Post: # 4341Post Alisima »

Vesko wrote:The quote does advise against judging people and that judging is bad, since not having time to love is bad.
Where in the quote do you see something about good and bad?? The quote simply states that when you judge people, you have no time to love them. Period. Nothing about judging being bad or loving being good. None of that. You, have added that.
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Vesko
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Post: # 4343Post Vesko »

I definitely think I have interpreted the statement logically correctly in the proper context. If an activity leaves no time for experiencing by far the best feeling there is, it logically follows that the activity is an undesirable one. But is the love in the statement by far the best feeling there is, or did the author of the statement mean some other thing by it? The statement does not say verbatim if love in itself is good, bad or neither, but let us look deeper. Mother Teresa is a great example of a Christian. Love is by far the best thing in Christianity. Therefore, it is beyond reasonable doubt that Mother Teresa had meant that love is good, actually by far the best thing there is, in her statement, even though that is not expressed explicitly. So have I added anything to the statement? Yes, only logically following from what is known about Mother Teresa in order to make a fuller interpretation.
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Alisima
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Post: # 4344Post Alisima »

Vesko wrote:I definitely think I have interpreted the statement logically correctly in the proper context. If an activity leaves no time for experiencing by far the best feeling there is, it logically follows that the activity is an undesirable one. But is the love in the statement by far the best feeling there is, or did the author of the statement mean some other thing by it? The statement does not say verbatim if love in itself is good, bad or neither, but let us look deeper. Mother Teresa is a great example of a Christian. Love is by far the best thing in Christianity. Therefore, it is beyond reasonable doubt that Mother Teresa had meant that love is good, actually by far the best thing there is, in her statement, even though that is not expressed explicitly. So have I added anything to the statement? Yes, only logically following from what is known about Mother Teresa in order to make a fuller interpretation.
Yes, I understand how and why you came to your conclusions.

Don't you agree that judging is in itself always negative?? And love, on the other hand, always positive??

So, that makes it fully understandable that when you judge, you can't love. And in order to fully love you should accept all. Or in other words, be non-judging.

Thus, mother theresa was absolutely right, as far as words allow it.
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bomohwkl
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Post: # 4345Post bomohwkl »

Alisima wrote:
Vesko wrote:
trumpet_is_cool wrote:"If you judge people, you have no time to love them." Mother Theresa
One crucial caveat -- it is not true we ought not to judge others.
The quote never said we should not judge people, nor that judging is in any way bad. You are distorting the quote here. The quote said that you can't judge someone and love them at the same time. For judging implies a non-loving attitude, and loving implies a non-judging attitude.
I think when we judge other people it has been done in the most mature, polite and loving way. I know an ESTJ who has no idea of how to judge people. People who has a more dominant feeling type will surely feel unloved

Here is an example of what it might sound like when you either judging yourself or other people.

ANGER: You are such a lazy slob! You drink too much and you eat too much. All you do is sit around and watch TV. I can't stand how lazy you are. You just get fatter and more out of shape every year. You disgust me!


FEAR: If you don't change, I am afraid you are going to keep gaining weight until you are facing a real health risk. I am afraid your cholesterol is going to get so high that you might have a heart attack. I am afraid that if you don't start eating better and taking care of yiourself, no one is going to be attracted to you. You might end up living alone for the rest of your life.

REQUESTS: I want you to join a health club and go at least three days a week. I want you to go for twenty minute walk the other four days. I want you to stop eating fried foods and start eating more fresh fruits and vegetables. I want you to stop drinking sodas and start drinking more water. I want you to limit drinking alcohol to Friday and Saturday night


LOVE: I love you. I want you to be aropund for a long time. I want you to have a wonderful relationship. You deserve to look good in your clothes and to feel good about yourself. You deserve to have all of your dreams come true. I want you to feel alive and energetic rather than tired and lethargic all the time. You deserve to live life fully and enjoy every moment of it. You deserve to be totally happy.


Hope these examples enlightened you all. LOVE. :)
Vesko
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Post: # 4346Post Vesko »

Alisima wrote:Don't you agree that judging is in itself always negative??
Is judging (others) negative when you have only facts, and are not depending on any assumptions in your judgement? No.
And love, on the other hand, always positive??
Likewise, can we consider the love of something negative a positive love? No.
So, that makes it fully understandable that when you judge, you can't love. And in order to fully love you should accept all. Or in other words, be non-judging.
You can accept and love all even after judgement. If your child has made an error, you shouldn't love the error itself because you'd be doing a disservice to the child, but you can love the child because you too have once been one and can understand how difficult it can be, you can also understand its great potential, and you should not forget the good things it has already accomplished.
Thus, mother theresa was absolutely right, as far as words allow it.
As I have said previously, I believe, but cannot be sure, that she has used the word judging in the sense of condemning. But to know that for sure in this case we have to have the context in which it had been said. Besides, Mother Teresa was an Albanian so it is possible that her words have been mistranslated. So in no way I want to jump to conclusions about her level of understanding. However, there are a lot of other Christians and non-Christians who incorrectly quote "Do not judge others", "Never judge" and similar. I have been told such statements many times by many people when I have expressed disagreement without condemnation and by justifying my disagreement with facts (I think so), and until recently I have been uneasy about their statements and I have suspected something is not logically right in them. I had not pressed myself to fully rationalise my suspicion about that because when everyone says it, it must be true, right? Also, I had believed that Christianity / Jesus Christ had some kind of higher-order logic behind those statements that I had been unable to grasp yet. However, I have recently found out that, the truth is, all those people who, I think, have told me those statements in order to prevent me from making any judgement at all have been wrong -- they have either just heard them from others without reading the Bible carefully, or have not grasped the context in which they have been used in the Bible. Please consider the following material; I think it provides solid reasoned explanations about misinterpretations and distortions of the relevant Biblical passages:

"The Cult of 'Do not judge'"
http://www.letusreason.org/Pent44.htm

"Is It Right to Judge?"
http://www.fundamentalbiblechurch.org/T ... cjudge.htm

"To Judge or Not to Judge -- The Rights and Wrongs of Biblical Discernment"
http://www.pfo.org/notjudge.htm

"A Verbal Exchange Regarding Jesus and 'Judge Not'"
http://www.christianbaptistliving.com/judge-not.html

Even if we ignore the Bible and Christianity whatsoever, the logical answer behind the question "Is judging (others) negative when you have only facts, and are not depending on any assumptions in your judgement?" for me is enough to conclude that we can judge others.

To sum it up: Never judge others on the basis of assumptions. Judge only as far as you are absolutely sure you have the hard facts. Make sure you have the hard facts before uttering a word against or in favour of someone. One must walk a fine line in order to judge correctly.
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Bastian
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Judge not -- VS -- Judge fairly

Post: # 4349Post Bastian »

Alisima wrote:The quote never said we should not judge people, nor that judging is in any way bad. You are distorting the quote here.
That is a bit harsh. Vesko made an interpretation of the quote, and I think it was both fair and relevant - certainly not a distortion.
Alisima wrote:The quote said that you can't judge someone and love them at the same time. For judging implies a non-loving attitude, and loving implies a non-judging attitude.
In short I disagree.

Lets say a mother sees her own son hit another child because the son wants the other child's toy. Would a loving mother ignore it? Or would a loving mother judge the bullying behaviour as harmful to the child's development, and out of love seek to correct the child. And if the child refuses to obey then the mother may be forced to punish the child (no desert for you!) lest the child grow up into a cruel hearted man.

Without judgement how can the mother discern when her child is misbehaving? If a mother truly loves her child then she will care about whether that child grows up into a cruel person or a kind person. Hence it is necessary (out of love) at times to pass judgement and even punish a child.
Last edited by Bastian on Wed Sep 07, 2005 3:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"All things derive their life from it [Tao] All things return to it, and it contains them." -- Tao Teh Ching
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Post: # 4350Post Bastian »

OK, I gave my opinion (In my last post) about why judgement is at times both necessary and completely compatible with the love and nurture of another's spiritual growth.

Why then did Jesus warn us against 'judging' ? Well he spells it out pretty clearly :
Mat 7:1 Judge not, that you may not be judged. 2 For with whatever judgment you judge, you shall be judged; and with whatever measure you measure out, it shall be measured to you again.
So it is about judging fairly and not being a hypocrite. As Vesko said - it is better to not judge than to unfairly condemn someone...
Mat 18:21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? 22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents. 25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.

26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. 27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.

28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest. 29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. 30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.

31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done. 32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: 33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? 34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
Hmmmm...Some people pass judgement with the intent of helping the person, whilst others pass judgement out of malice, spite and hatred towards another.
"All things derive their life from it [Tao] All things return to it, and it contains them." -- Tao Teh Ching
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Yothu
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Post: # 4351Post Yothu »

bomohwkl wrote:I know an ESTJ who has no idea of how to judge people.
Bomoh, what is an ESTJ?

You don't mean the C.G.Jung personality type, mean ya?
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Aisin
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Post: # 6275Post Aisin »

Well argued people. One may make observations and then logical deductions, but there is really no need for judgement. For judging does not make one a more loving person. Even if you 'judged' correctly, people change all the time, the next minute, your deductions (or judgement) may be obsolete. You may continue to observe, that's all right, but no matter what you deduce from it, give your love in the end. If you give your love only if the judged person is 'good', then your love is conditional.
Lara A. Shah wrote:Unless one understands the judgements one holds about oneself, one cannot feel emotionally complete. It's judgement that inhibits the sense of being at one with All That Is. That means the moment a person makes a judgement, it separates him or her from every other individual and All That Is. Judgement is a betrayal of the soul. It destroys equality.
Note: The way Lara uses the expression, 'All That Is' = God = The Spirit (TP) = Great Intellect (TFOC).
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Yothu
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Post: # 6277Post Yothu »

I get a queasy feeling when it comes to the "unconditional - conditional love" topic together with "all that is = god".

For the last: how can somebody say this if he doesn't even know what god is? ... making the judgement that all that is is god/love etc

Is conditional love really love? If it is not, something like unconditional love does not exist. I'm fine with the statement that love exists, obviously it does, but I don't like to distinguish false and real love, for there is only genuine love and many other feelings that are not love. Are you really in love when you give it to anybody only after jugding somebody? I don't think so.
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Aisin
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Post: # 6278Post Aisin »

Dear Yothu, sorry that I didn't explain the context clear enough. I quoted Lara from her book 'The Freedom of Innocence'. And she wrote 'When I write "All That Is", I am referring to what many people prefer to call "God"; others prefer to call "Supreme Being" and so on. To me, it is the same.'

So there's no need for any queasy feeling, it's not about judging all that is is god.
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Yothu
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Post: # 6280Post Yothu »

Yes, well, that is exactly my point.

"All that is", why should that be "the Supreme Being"?
Isn't a certain dichotomy - hear somebody say: "let's look around and see the condition our world is in, wars, crime, murder, violence, starvation, destruction of the environment etc, .. is this god? Is this an intelligent designer would have created an 'intelligent world'? Why does 'the Creator' let all of that happen blah blah" - responsible for many people for turning their back to religion (in the true sense of meaning, latin word: religare, which means: reconnect, ~return; aspiring toward the Spirit), negating spirituality as a whole and even pursue an autodestructive way of living?

I am personally well off with my rough idea which is the following: it might well be that a trace of the supreme being mankind worships is evident and exists in all of us, and all of creation. So, in a sense this supreme being might be in all that is.
What is wrong in my opinion is promoting a sentence like "All that is = god" like a slogan, without enough explanation given, on an impersonal, maybe even romantic level. By impersonal I mean you might be in a sufficiently direct communication with a human being in a place so that your short statement's intrinsic meaning is transported too, but promoting it like an advertisement, used over and over again, it might not have barely the same effect on a fellow being.
In my case it was almost offending.


Aisin, I hope you understand that my post is of friendly nature. Still this is what I think.
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