Lost Dialogue of Plato about Atlantis

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Vesko
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Lost Dialogue of Plato about Atlantis

Post: # 214Post Vesko »

What and who is Hermocrates? More precisely, who was and what could be Hermocrates?
In another post on this forum, Zark mentioned computer games as distractions. Speaking of which, have you played "Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis" by LucasArts Entertainment? Though old, it is one of the very good games in existence. If you have played it, do you remember that part of the plot was a so-called "Lost Dialogue of Plato"? In the game that dialogue is titled "Hermocrates." I played the game in 1993 and it inspired me so much that I asked my history teacher about a lost dialogue of Plato regarding Atlantis, but he could not answer anything useful. Now though, I found that such a dialogue is indeed structurally and thematically missing, because, as you may know, Timaeus and Critias are the sole two dialogues in Plato's works that contain information about Atlantis and have partly survived to our times. The conversing parties in both dialogues are Socrates, Timaeus, Critias and Hermocrates (all friends). Socrates, as the wisest, leads the conversation. In Timaeus and Critias, the respective friend responds the most to his questions as part of the elenchus. So far, so good - but we never get to read a dialogue dedicated to his other friend Hermocrates.
There is also the following fact: the dialogue Critias ends with "The rest of the Dialogue of Critias has been lost." And what is actually interrupted... is the story about Atlantis!
So, in fact, a lost part of a dialogue (Critias) about Atlantis indeed exists.
But could it be that Plato wrote a separate now-lost dialogue dedicated to Hermocrates containing more information regarding this lost continent?
Or could it be that the full Critias contained really valuable information about Atlantis that could have changed history?
Whatever the truth, we must not throw the entire blame on todays' scientific thought the silly skepticism and non-existent rigorous search for Atlantis in the middle of today's Atlantic Ocean. Because even Plato's student Aristotle said:
"He who invented it also destroyed it" - a complete dismissal by, ironically, the person considered the real founder of logic.
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Post: # 238Post Vesko »

You can find public-domain English translations of Plato's works, stored locally here.
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Zark
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Post: # 309Post Zark »

There was talk recently about archaeologists digging up what they thought *might* be part of the Library of Alexandria.

But.. I don't know if Plato's works were written before this amazing ancient Library was burnt down. However, books by other authors regarding Atlantis would certainly have been stored in Alexandria...

food for thought?
z
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Post: # 310Post Kestrel »

I don't know if they would "like" what they found if they did so. If ya catch what I am saying.
‘And there we are. When you push away your neighbours, your son or your daughter - if you aren’t always ready to help even those whom you don’t like, you contribute to the disintegration of your civilisation. And this is what is happening on Earth more and more, through hate and violence."
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Vesko
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Post: # 323Post Vesko »

Zark wrote:There was talk recently about archaeologists digging up what they thought *might* be part of the Library of Alexandria.
Thanks for mentioning that. I had missed it.
But.. I don't know if Plato's works were written before this amazing ancient Library was burnt down. However, books by other authors regarding Atlantis would certainly have been stored in Alexandria...

food for thought?
z
From what is known, The Great Library of Alexandria was assembled 3-rd century B.C. Plato wrote his works circa 360 B.C. (closer to 4-th century B.C.). The library was burnt about 400 A.D., although part of it could be burnt by Julius Caesar about 50 B.C.

There is no doubt amazing documents were there about Atlantis and the motherland, Mu.
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Post: # 325Post Lachie »

Vesko, would they have made it into mainstream books and plays? As far as I know Plato's dialogues is the only place you can find reference to Atlantis.

There was an 'intellectual class division' in place in early times, though, as we can read about in The Book with the Egyptian priests and secret knowledge. It would have interfered with the leaders' control over their subjects if they knew they came from a different land, rather than coming from 'heaven' or 'god' or whatever they were told.

Lachie
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Post: # 404Post Vesko »

I agree completely, Lachie.
In my first post, I quoted Aristotle's dismissal of Atlantis: "He who invented it also destroyed it". Here's something else I've found since, quoting from http://www.lanzarote-guide.com/gui-eng/myths.htm:
Aristotle, as noted, thought little of Plato's ideas on Atlantis. He believed them to be little more than purely poetic imaginings, although, on close inspection, there are sorne contradictions even in Aristotle's comments on the lost continent. In a passage in the Constitution of the Tegaeians, he wrote that the natives of Arcadia had based an ancient claim to their land on the belief that they came from Atíantis and had inhabited their country "even before there had been a Moon in the heavens."
(The bold emphasis is mine.)
The mentioning of the moon made me recollect what was written in the book:
'There was no moon at the time when the blacks populated Australia, or for a very long time afterwards. There had been two very small moons much earlier - about six million years ago, which revolved around Earth, eventually colliding with it. Earth was not inhabited at the time so, although terrible cataclysms followed, it didn’t really matter.
'About 500 000 years ago, Earth "captured" a much larger moon - the one which exists now. It was passing too close to your planet and was attracted into an orbit. This often happens with moons. Further catastrophes were provoked by this event...’
I've been unable to find this "Constitution of the Tegaeians" or anything on Tegaeians. Anyone who can find the text to verify? I've searched electronically through Aristotle's "Politics", "A Treatise on Government", and "The Athenian Constitution", but only find a few references to Arcadia, no Tegaeians or moon.
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Post: # 408Post Lachie »

Just a clarification Vesko - wasn't Atlantis settled and destroyed around 17,500 years ago rather than 500,000 years when we captured the moon?

Lach
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Post: # 415Post Vesko »

Lachie wrote:Just a clarification Vesko - wasn't Atlantis settled and destroyed around 17,500 years ago rather than 500,000 years when we captured the moon?

Lach
I have inferred the following chronology from the book -- the important dates in prehistory to the sinking of Atlantis, and some posthistory. I would be glad to hear your citique if something bothers you about it, or any suggestiions.

(approx. years ago)
1,350,000. Bakaratinians land on Earth.
1,320,000. Bakaratinian civilization destroyed; continent of future Mu rises
???. Small number of white people (race) arrives from another planet and settles Atlantis. Shortly afterwards, they lose all technical understanding. Then they also lose spiritual knowledge and regress to primitivity.
250,000. People of Aremo X3 settle on Mu.
200,000. People of Mu number 80,000,000.
Research for proper colonisation conducted via the pyramid. Regular exploratory expeditions undertaken via flying ships.
???. Colonies established in New Guinea, Southern Asia (incl. India) and simultaneously with that, South and Central America; Tiacuano (now in Bolivia) is a colonial base. Channel built between Pacific Ocean and Atlantic Ocean via inland sea (today Brasil), allowing colonisation of Atlantis. Original inhabitants of Atlantis --the white race -- already passed prehistoric period, re-developing steam power. Upon colonisation of Atlantis, many from that race emigrate to Northern Europe and Northern Africa by steamships. Thiaooubans visit colonies of Mu in India and New Guinea.
30,000. Atlantis becomes a great colony of Mu. At the time already populated by original people of Mu (Polynesians) and Mayas, or Maya-Atlanteans (remaining white people that liked the culture of the Polynesians). The Mayas govern Atlantis and construct a replica of the Savanasa pyramid.
17,000. Maya-Atlanteans explore the Mediterranean going via North Africa; teach the Arabs. Found a small colony in Greece and give them their alphabet (that of Mu and Atlantis). Finally arrive in Egypt. Establish beliefs of Mu and organisational principles of Atlantis. Toth builds the Great Pyramid for 9 years, on a scale 3 times reduced than Savanasa's.
In the same period, Nagas, likely coming from Mu, set up colonies in Burma, India and reach Egypt, establishing similar practices to the Mayan in the latter.
14,500. Mu destroyed (As Churchward proposes and as, I think, Thao seems to confirm in the book, due to the collapse of gas belts under the two continents).
How about Atlantis? The book says nothing explicitly about when Atlantis sank, but it must had been either at the same time or earlier, because the Great Thaora said our technology is nothing in comparison with what existed more than 14,500 years ago, i.e. Atlantis must not have been in existence afterwards.
5,000. Remnant Nagas and Mayas form United Egypt
18. Michel Desmarquet's trip. :shock:

P.S. Nagas are not much discussed in the book and less generally known, but they seem to be connected more with Mu itself, rather than the Muvian Atlantis. Why do I think they originated from Mu? The book does not state it explicitly, but does state that Naga/Nagan and Maya/Mayan beliefs were similar, and that the improvements they introduced in the colonies they established, were similar. They do not seem associated with Atlantis because nowhere in the book they are mentioned in connection with Atlantis. Another reason is that the book calls them just Nagas without an -Atlanteans suffix, whereas Mayas are obviously of two types -- Maya-Muvians, and Maya-Atlanteans. The latter are simply those of the former who colonised the Mediterranean and other regions -- they were "very learned colonisers from Mu", as the book says.
Nagas are important because they spread advanced culture in Burma, India and Egypt and because about 5000 years ago they formed United Egypt together with the Mayas, in equal proportions. They are also said to have had the most advanced schools. The Nagas (naga means cobra in Hindu) are thought by our historians to have never existed, being just a mythological race of semi-human, semi-snake men revered by the Hindus to bring fertility. Is it a coincidence that the Superlative Intellect as believed in Mu is pictured as a seven-headed cobra (see picture in James Churchward "The Lost Continent of Mu") and in Hinduism the snake is second in sacredness only to the cow? Furthermore, snake worship is an important part of today's Indian mythology and culture. Especially in Southern India, snake worship continues to this day with full force. Southern India? The chronology above indicates that sometime after 200,000 years ago, the people of Mu set up a colony in Southern Asia. Since Southern Asia includes part of India, then the Nagas must have been exactly the Mu people who colonised the Southern Asiatic region or descendants of those first Mu colonisers! After Burma and India, the Nagas reached Egypt and settled the upper, i.e. northern part of the country, founding a large town (Mayou) on the banks of the Red Sea. The Maya-Atlanteans had also established a colony in Egypt, but they seem to have been exclusively situated in southern Egypt, and the both types of people mingled only after the unification. It is interesting to note that the book says the Egyptian race was formed not by the Maya-Atlanteans, but by the Nagas, their colonists, and the natives of the region (obviously those who wanted to become colonists, too). Because of their own colony before United Egypt was formed, the Mayas must have played a part in the creation of the "race", too, but evidently a smaller one. It must be noted that, seemingly, it was the Maya-Atlanteans who built the Great Pyramid and a certain number of temples, because as the book states, their builder, Toth, came from Atlantis. Since, again, Nagas are never mentioned in connection with Altantis, nor they have an -Atlanteans prefix to their name, Thoth was likely of Mayan origin.

Note: Revised on March 02, 2005 to correct inaccuracy about the Naga and add a few new related points.
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Post: # 945Post Vesko »

According to Churchward, the Nagas ARE still Mayas, but Mayas that went a different route, as Michel's book says.

In "The Lost Continent of Mu" Churchward shows side-by-side a specimen of writing found in India, from the times of an ancient Indian empire (the Rama empire, I think), and a specimen from the Pacific region. Both are almost identical. There were only very minute differences.

He also writes that the original language of Mu was the so-called Naga-Maya language.

Note: Revised on March 02, 2005 to correct inaccuracy about the Naga and add the last two paragraphs.
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Post: # 976Post Kestrel »

Whats the seven headed snake? Is that a consule of leaders?
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Post: # 983Post Vesko »

It's the number of independent intellects that the Creator is assumed to have (accoding to people of Mu). But was it an assumption? If we consider that the Creator made us in his image, I think the book tells us that it was not, and it certainly tells us that the council has to be of seven humans (bolding is mine):

It's interesting to remember what's written in the book on page 89 (bolding is mine):
‘Their political system was modelled on that of Aremo X3. They had long ago discovered that the only way to govern a country properly was to place at the head of government, seven men of integrity, representing no political party, but sincerely committed to doing what they could for their nation.

‘The seventh among them was the Supreme Judge whose vote on council was worth two. If four were against him and two with him on a particular issue, they were at deadlock, and hours or days of debate would ensue, until at least one of the seven was persuaded to change his vote. This debate was conducted within a context of intelligence, love and concern for the people.

‘These high figures received no great material benefits for leading the nation. It was their vocation to lead and they did it for the love of serving their country - this avoided the problem of hiding opportunists among the leaders.’
Some years ago I found another related thing (fact?) that this time the present 'civilization' has found:
This is a post on The Freedom of Choice Reader Forum:
Vesselin wrote:In "astrology / numerology" topic there is a discussion on 'seven planetary genii' seemingly present in all religions on Earth.

In a sociology textbook, I've read that seven persons is the maximum number for a close conversation to occur without problems. This explains why the Thaori are seven, and why the highest leaders of a country should be neither more, nor less than seven in number.
.
Tom Chalko wrote:This is really interesting connection. However, we need to explore assumptions and logic behind these sociology conclusions to determine if they indeed do provide a sensible explanation.
I read it in a sociology text book (I am not sure, but I think the author was Ian Robertson). This relatively old textbook is an introduction to sociology but unfortunately presents a lot from an American perspective, yet it attempts to promote cultural relativism (see below) in an attempt to be culturally neutral in its presentation of the material.
In my opinion, neither cultural relativism nor cultural imperialism (see below) are the way to deal with cultures. In my opinion, there is no simple rule-based approach in those matters, the only way to go forward is for different cultures to exchange their best ideas and discard the rest, such as rituals and unnecessary traditions. But doing so is very difficult because it requires proper judgement and perfect knowledge of the cultures involved.

Definitions:
(Tony Bilton et al., Introductory Sociology, 3rd edition. London, Macmillan, 1996:656)

cultural relativism
An approach that denies that any one way of living is superior to others; all cultures are equal.

cultural imperialism
The aggressive promotion of Western culture, based on the assumption that its value system is superior and preferable to those of non-Western cultures.
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Post: # 3746Post Vesko »

I have learnt that according to Edgar Cayce, the Great Library of Alexandria had been founded by people from Atlantis (Atlanteans), instead of much more recent Egyptian kings, the Ptolemeys, as contemporary historians think. From the perspective of Michel's book, that is quite possible!
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Rezo
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Re: Lost Dialogue of Plato about Atlantis

Post: # 11481Post Rezo »

http://thecrit.com/2009/05/05/200000-ye ... d-on-moon/

Seeing this reminded me of the TP part of Aremo X3 people on the moon. Just a 'passive' observation here. VERY passive observation.

:-k

not exactly related to plato's dialogues. Unless he mentions people living on the moon? I'd assume thats not in the two volumes. Sorry, didn't know where to put this. Its not major news to me but relates to the past civilization [i.e. Mu, and its people].

Very interesting, never heard of Hermocrates [or much education on ancient Greece] before, thats very interesting as a lost work relating to Atlantis [and possibly mu?]. Never heard of that video game though. Thats a very interesting story! Its probably hidden, somewhere.
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