Skeptical article on Thiaoouba

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InfoSource
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Skeptical article on Thiaoouba

Post: # 7218Post InfoSource »

http://www.skeptics.com.au/journal/1994/1.pdf

The article on Thiaoouba is on page 43 of 69

I found this link a couple of weeks ago, but couldn't open in acrobat since it gave me acrord32 error, today I searched for a way to get around the problem and that is to right click on the link and "save as". Then open it on your computer and not through your browser

An excerpt from the article
Michel has tried to claim that he was not interested in UFOs
before this remarkable abduction happened to him, but the
book explicitly says otherwise and bears this out in a variety
of ways. How strong was his interest? Well, certain members
of the local hang gliding club used to delight in flying over
Michel’s palm tree plantation, and Michel complained to the
police that he was being buzzed by flying saucers! He did
not think this relevant enough to include it in the book.
Vesko
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Post: # 7219Post Vesko »

Thank you for posting this.

On my end, the document loads without any problems in 3 major browsers -- Internet Explorer, Firefox and Konqueror, so the issue must be on your end.

I've read it entirely. I can say for sure that the skeptical argumentation in the article is not convincing at all and the article author hasn't read the book carefully, because he makes several factual mistakes about its contents. He also makes several statements from science that seem valid, but are not so, or are not necessarily so.
The ability to discern faint stars is limited by the human eye, and cannot be improved by atmospheric effects
Wrong. The book says that the atmospheric gases on Thiaoouba are such that they magnify the stars.
Finally, our Sun is not white -- it's an ordinary, very yellow G2 star, and no trick of any atmosphere can make it white, especially if next to another star, which is yellow
No trick, especially if you don't know the qualities of their atmosphere at all? See http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/p ... y00940.htm. Note "The sun as seen in outer space is quite white" (the emphasis in bold is mine). So, if we don't know the constitution of the Thiaoouban atmosphere, how can we say it may not appear white inside their atmosphere? In fact, if we accept for a moment this is really so, it would mean the Thiaoouban atmosphere gives a precise view of the stars' actual colors, and not altered colors like our atmosphere does. So, theirs can be said to be superior to ours, exactly in line with the entirely superior environment that Thiaoouba is described to be. And the "especially if next to another star, which is yellow" part -- why not, if the other star is actually seen from space to be yellow, rather than white, as our sun is.

The article writes about the mutated cockroaches and ants on Aremo X3:
[...]Insects just cannot be that big - the metabolism just won't scale up.
This is not known. The insect may have mutations that affect its metabolism, so it actually scales up.
The Thiaooubans are not above interfering with the course of Earth's development on frequent occasions. Adam and Eve were theirs[...]
The book states they do it "from time to time", "occasionally", not frequently at all.
And Bakaratinians came to Earth on their own, because their planet had been cooling down, so the first men on Earth (Adam and Eve figuratively) aren't created or set up by the Thiaooubans.
Even in the 1980s the Thiaooubans kept tampering with evil politicians' testing of huge satellite weapons -- especially the ones that would have played havoc with astronomical equipment but which nobody noticed.
Nobody noticed? On the contrary. From quotes on the topic "Needles (Project West Ford)":
This plan was strongly opposed by the International Union of Astronomers.
and
The experiment was greatly criticized by astronomers who feared optical and radio pollution.
I can extend the above list of clear errors.

As for the quote about the buzzing UFOs above his plantation, if it is true -- which we have to be sure it is -- it proves what? Nothing really. Whereas the above is hard proof that the author of the article did a very poor job.
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Post: # 7221Post dloheb »

I haven't listened to the Thiaoouba Truth cds yet, but plan to.

Now onto the article itself, first I will bring up interesting (mostly good) points he makes.

"They could communicate by telepathy, as well as speak in French and
English, but then why did they need to speak to each other,
in their own language which he couldn’t understand, in front
of Michel?
"

This is something that confused me a little as well, especially this:

"Thao explained that their principal question was: why
is he so sad -is he ill?" (TP)

One would assume that with telepathy they would be able to discern whether or not someone was sad. But we do know it takes effort to "dip" into someone's thoughts and that it can be uncustomary to do so.

---

"...zapping a couple of 6-foot cockroaches and a
herd of ants the size of cows, our heroes moved on, oblivious
to the fact that insects just cannot be that big - the metabolism
just won’t scale up.
"

A common debate on these forums. I'd like to understand the idea of scaling up...

---

"Michel has tried to claim that he was not interested in UFOs
before this remarkable abduction happened to him, but the
book explicitly says otherwise and bears this out in a variety
of ways. How strong was his interest? Well, certain members
of the local hang gliding club used to delight in flying over
Michel’s palm tree plantation, and Michel complained to the
police that he was being buzzed by flying saucers!
"

I assume that Michel said this himself - I'd like to see a source. You'd have to be pretty NUMB (or cooky) to mistake hang gliders for UFOs...

---

"Michel thought it might be in the Pleiades, which would make life pretty
exciting since those stars are still in the process of formation.
"

While he doesn't actually claim it's there, Tom seems to have the same idea... why they'd even have that idea I am not sure of.

---

"Also, if they were travelling near or above the speed of light, as
claimed, then Saturn would not have had the colours
described.
"

Seems correct, unless for instance, the 'cameras' has some sort of technology to get around the problem.

---
"At that time, from Earth, we saw Saturn at right ascension
16h56m, declination 21.1oS, ie in a sparsely-starred area on
the border between the constellations we call Scorpius and
Ophiuchus; Thiaoouba must have been exactly in this
direction. From it, Michel saw a pair of red stars, a green star
and a yellow and a white star, the white one being our Sun.
Our Sun has absolute magnitude 4.8, which is how bright it
would appear if at a distance of 10 parsecs; if “just visible”
from Thiaoouba it would be at visual magnitude about 6,
which leaves it about 17 parsecs or 56 light-years from here.
(The ability to discern faint stars is limited by the human eye
and cannot be improved by atmospheric effects). So they must
have travelled not at “several times” the speed of light, but at
about 100,000 times the speed of light to get there in a few
hours, not allowing for acceleration and deceleration, which
themselves would have been pretty spectacular. Vastly more
than 9 days would have elapsed on Earth during their 9-day
round trip.
"

and

"In fact, there are no bright
green stars or pairs of red stars at all, as anyone can verify by
going outside on a clear night on either Earth or Thiaoouba.
Finally, our Sun is not white - it’s an ordinary, very yellow
G2 star, and no trick of any atmosphere can make it white,
especially if next to another star which is yellow. So where
is Thiaoouba? It is in cloud-cuckoo land; it cannot be
anywhere else.
"

---
---
---

Now onto the problems with the article.

"...inhabited by the Thaori
people
"

No, while it may be he's making a sortof joke, it may show he didn;t read it throughly enough, or read it seriously.

---

They wore one-piece silver suits and shimmering robes, as were often worn by
aliens in 1960s stories.


I don't think such things have a place in a skeptical piece.

---

"They could change size, levitate, and dematerialise so as to pass through solid walls,
but they almost always did things the hard way, without
remembering to exploiting these conveniences
"

I don't recall them passing through solid walls... it seems to me he was confused by the workings of their "Doko"'s; they didn't dematerialize to pass through the walls. Levitation was used not for travel, or to make things difficult, but rather for psychic excercises. It was very apparent they used technology to travel about.

---

"Pausing to interfere with indigenous history and theology"

"Michel got up and walked around, as Superman might have done."

"Thao forgot to tell Michel to fasten his seat belt prior to some violent
spacecraft manoeuvring."

"the white dots we get on our TV screens are parasites that are attacking the
electrons!"


These are some examples of Steve Roberts (the skeptic who wrote the article) making more blatant presumptions and not understanding the text/messages in the book correctly.

Not even going to bother with the somewhat bitter and quite stupid first quote... was Michel supposed to die or be welded to the floor???... Michel did not need a seat belt (maybe this was a joke) and he was restrained... the "white dots" was an analogy...

---

"They explained that Michel had had 80 past lives, making this his 81st = 9x9,
and the number 9 is special (the Beatles knew this). ...
"

What does the skeptic claim to know about the reason behind Michel's abduction...?

---

"They stopped the Nazis getting the atom bomb, but were happy to let the Americans invent it and drop it on the Japanese..."

This makes it apparent that the author simply does not GET IT. The book makes its case in this regard very clear, and the fact the skeptic has missed it concerns me slightly.

---

"...tampering with evil politicians’ testing of huge satellite weapons... astronomical
equipment but which nobody noticed.
"

This isn't in TP so I assume Michel said this later. Again, there's a lot of Michel's interview etc. (although this will come from a very biased source that charges too much for the interviews to begin with) I haven't listened to. If it was in regards to the 'needles', there were articles released regarding these.

---
---
---


Thanks for posting the link to this article. However, as this was the best skepticism I've seen against TP, I'd like to read something from someone who took the book more seriously and DIDN'T rely on the reader's carelessness and preconcieved notions to make his work "credible". Most of Robert's article is busy making jokes and wild assumptions... it is full of, what's the term... "sylistic embellishment"? :P

That being said, there are some good points in the article but I don't have much knowledge of physics and astronomy. Would someone please seriously delve into those points? (edit: looks like Vesko started to do this as I was writing :))
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Post: # 7260Post Yothu »

The more publicity, the better.
This guy's just doing our work: Letting people get to know Thiaoouba Prophecy.

I cannot imagine somebody to do anything better than this 8)
If you do what you've always done, you'll get what you always got.
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Post: # 7263Post dloheb »

Yothu wrote:The more publicity, the better.
This guy's just doing our work: Letting people get to know Thiaoouba Prophecy.

I cannot imagine somebody to do anything better than this 8)
There is such a thing as bad publicity.
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Post: # 7266Post InfoSource »

dloheb wrote:Thanks for posting the link to this article. However, as this was the best skepticism I've seen against TP, I'd like to read something from someone who took the book more seriously and DIDN'T rely on the reader's carelessness and preconcieved notions to make his work "credible". Most of Robert's article is busy making jokes and wild assumptions... it is full of, what's the term... "sylistic embellishment"? Razz
I agree with your assessment of the article, the author besides making jokes and wild assumptions likes to compare TP to works of science fiction as a way to dismiss it as copying material from other sources

I don't think currently there is a better skeptical article on TP, however skeptics dictionary might do an article on it in the future, as TP is listed as a possible future topic

http://www.skepdic.com/future.html
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Post: # 7269Post ptex »

dloheb wrote:There is such a thing as bad publicity.
Definitely! This article (and the site as a consequence) is a CLEAR example of what the danger of wrong journalism really is. This is an obscure and not very credible site (!) but other "silly flock followers" may just quote their contents and thus help spread lies about The Book.

Given the nature of TP, the book needs indeed to be challenged intelligently and coherently and this "so-called" review is neither, it's only a joke not even a good one actually. Anyone can "smell" the non-sense even before starting to read the article :lol:

Edited: changed the quote above to "dloheb" instead of "Yothu".
Last edited by ptex on Tue Aug 22, 2006 10:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post: # 7270Post Yothu »

ptex wrote:
Yothu wrote:There is such a thing as bad publicity.
Definitely! [...] Anyone can "smell" the non-sense even before starting to read the article :lol:
Btw, I did not write this ^. It was a quote of dloheb.

I don't really think there is such as "bad publicity". Regarding TP, "bad manufactured" criticism isn't going to hold back people that REALLY want to take a look into the book. Dr. Chalko's first homepage did not hold me back and hey, that was a really repellant one. The newer version is more "diplomatic" I think.
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Post: # 7275Post ptex »

Yothu wrote:Btw, I did not write this ^. It was a quote of dloheb.
You're right :oops: I already edited the post to reflect this. I apologize to both.
Yothu wrote:I don't really think there is such as "bad publicity". Regarding TP, "bad manufactured" criticism isn't going to hold back people that REALLY want to take a look into the book. Dr. Chalko's first homepage did not hold me back and hey, that was a really repellant one. The newer version is more "diplomatic" I think.
I think we can't really affirm this. This kind of "review" even if it sparkles people's curiosity may induce the person to look with a predetermined mind-frame... otherwise ultimately there's never such thing as bad journalism is there? For me the article was written with the clear intent to confuse and mislead people by intentionally distorting the truth and this is unacceptable! That's all!
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Post: # 7279Post shezmear »

I think you can expect that sort of stuff from the people of Earth...so no real worry on my end, they will write what they write, but it changes nothing....
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Post: # 7332Post survivor »

shezmear wrote:I think you can expect that sort of stuff from the people of Earth...so no real worry on my end, they will write what they write, but it changes nothing....
I agree + it is also their job to confuse the masses.
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Post: # 7334Post Vesko »

I disagree, I think it can change quite a bit. As it is written in the book, bad journalism is one of the primary dangers on Earth. Because most people are not going to research almost anything they read about the book by themselves, they will take such badly written articles almost totally at face value. Then, they will further spread the misinformation. The new misinformation will continue to justify the status quo in the world, and the status quo will be further cemented or worsened. As a result, an increasingly greater effort and increasingly greater numbers of people who are able to change the world for the better spiritually are needed to carry out the changes necessary if the pending spiritual and material disaster is to be averted.
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Post: # 7637Post Psi »

Absolutely!

It is, of course, not in the media's best interests to be seen to be promoting works as 'radical' or 'controversial', as Michel's. Much like scientists, it is safer to play the skeptic and save face with your peers. I know. I used to be part of the establishment. Having said that, there are ways and means of 'cutting through' as they say in the biz. If you can't do it conventionally via the news media, why not educate through entertainment (eg entertaining but thought-provoking docos a la Michael Moore or Morgan Spurlock's Super Size Me, or novels / films, like The Day After Tomorrow).

I think TP has got off lightly as far as media criticism, so far. But that's mainly because it is still not widely known. Not when you compare it to say, Rael, who has something like 50K active followers spreading the word and who-knows-how-many readers (I believe well over 1 million versus maybe 50K for Michel). Consequently Rael has gained a lot more exposure and copped a lot more criticism and, as anyone who has read his books knows (I've cringed through two of them), rightly so.

I know this is a little off -topic, but I'm just wondering if there's any interest in developing a new topic along the lines of other books of a similar nature, such as the work of Von Daniken or even the likes of Rael and Streiber. Likewise, a thread of personal experiences with so-called mystery schools and alternative groups, such as Scientology.

I realise it's not strictly related to TP but I would think it would be of interest to forum members.

What do you think?..
"The unexamined life is not worth living."
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Post: # 7649Post shezmear »

Vesko, I think that anyone of average intellegence will research the subject "in total", so if there are a whole lot of people out there saying it is c-r-a-p, then those with even a little intellegence will be able to find the golden thred, dare I say, truth of the matter, the fact the some people somewere invent`s a smear campain, will not stop those that truely want to understand, I think through out the universe on 1st catorgy planets it is common practice to meet with serious ignorence or even people setting out to s-c-r-e-w you up, those that really want to know will "find" regardless of what people say.

Has it stoped you?

Psi I read all of Von Daniken`s work when I was in school,(it`s been a while) I might be able to offer something if a new thread is started, although I must confess, I openly accept that it is a very big universe and sometimes people visit and choose to stay on this planet, so I`m not quite sure if I could offer a hell of a lot.

I have not herd of Rael, read all of Streiber`s work, Do you think he is telling the truth?
I have my doubts...
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Post: # 7661Post Psi »

shezmear wrote:Psi I read all of Von Daniken`s work when I was in school,(it`s been a while) I might be able to offer something if a new thread is started, although I must confess, I openly accept that it is a very big universe and sometimes people visit and choose to stay on this planet, so I`m not quite sure if I could offer a hell of a lot.
Yes, I think Von Daniken is worth a thread. Like you, I read him a long time ago and still refer to him from time to time. As you did deeper, you'll discover many similarities to TP but also many things that are in conflict. Can't give any examples off the top of my head, but I recall flagging the discrepancies at the time of reading.

My thinking is that it's important for us to consider all information - as I know everyone here does - to either verify or even challenge TP. So, can I leave it to you to get the ball rolling?..
shezmear wrote:I have not herd of Rael, read all of Streiber`s work, Do you think he is telling the truth?
I have my doubts...
Whitney Strieber was a journalist cum novelist who apparently was not very successful until he wrote 'Communion', a non-fiction account of his encounter with greys. The book is entertaining, as was the movie in the 1980s with Christopher 'The Dead Zone' Walken (an appropriate choice, me thinks). The book propelled Strieber on to the bestseller lists and made the greys a hit as well. To the best of my knowledge, he was the first to describe and illustrate (it's on the front cover of the book) the bug-eyed, smooth-featured look of the greys. Michel was asked if Streiber was a real abductee on Thiaoouba Truth and he said he didn't know. Since then, Strieber has even questioned his own encounter - not knowing if it was real. He has, since then, written several more bestsellers including as retrospective novel on Roswell and also has a UFO/paranormal radio show in the US. I must say, ever since reading the book and seeing the movie, I was of two minds about the experience: Some things rang true; many others did not (therefore, I concluded it was manufactured).

On to our great 'adversary' Rael. You'll find more on him here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rael

Rael, as you'll see, was a French journalist cum sports car driver who recorded a couple of albums of music. That was all before his claimed encounter in the early 1970s near a volcano crater in France. The rest of the story you can read online. Rael is not his real name but the one given to him by the aliens, since he is now the new messiah and also founder of the Raelian Foundation - an atheistic religion. Yep, there is no God.

I have read his first two books. That's all I could stand without powerful medication (joking, of course - I don't think I could stand reading any more in any state). Both concern a small grey-like figure who is part of a race called the "Elohim". They were responsible for creating human life on Earth and elsewhere. The representative goes by the name of Yahweh (heard that somewhere before?) and he asked Rael to bring along a copy of the Bible. For most of Book 1 - 'The Book that Tells the Truth' (how can you beat that for a title?), the alien chooses passages from the Bible and then gives Rael the true interpretation. It's like one long philosophical / theological lesson without any punchlines. There are some points of interest; some which actually correlate with what Michel has said (eg the aliens playing a role in humanity's past and been seen as gods) - he talks of the parting of the Red Sea (Sea of Reeds) by a repellent ray from the mothership, to give one example.

The second book - 'Extra-Terrestrials Took Me To Their Planet - says it all. On their planet, he meets a few characters you've heard of from history: Jesus, Mohammed, Buddha, Moses and they have lunch. Yep, lunch. Apparently they discussed various things with Rael over a platter of meats while lying on fur rugs (stay with me) but they must not have been of much interest because there is not one mention - directly or indirectly - of what was discussed in the book. I was hoping, after enduring that far, that JC or Buddha would come through with a couple of gems. Gee, I would have taken a morsel from Jerry Springer. But, no, only indigestion.

The 'best part', Rael saves for last. He has been charged with creating a new religion (just what we need) which he has done. I read somewhere that it has raised something like US$10 million (Remember what Hubbard said before he founded Scientology: "If you want to make REAL money, start a religion") and that he must construct an interstellar embassy for Elohim's return to Earth. This, of course, requires a great deal of money - and I think the Elohim are a bit hard up at the moment, so it's up to us. It also has to be constructed in Israel. So far, Israel has not agreed to donating any land to Rael despite repeated requests over the years. I read, I think on their website, that if Israel does not contribute, then they may be punished again by the Elohim. Clearly, these aliens are fans of the Old Testament.

Sorry, I digress. Back to the gripping conclusion of Book 2. Rael's message in a nutshell:

1. There is no God.
2. Rael is the last of the prophets.
2. Aliens - the Elohim - created this world and all creatures in it, including humans.
3. The Raelian Movement is the only way to salvation.
4. Divorce and contraception are acceptable (I'm not arguing)
5. Suicide and assisted suicide are acceptable (I am arguing)
6. Oh, and if you want to be saved, if you want to join your Elohim brothers and sisters, you need to contribute to the cause - both in terms of energy and (you guessed it) money. He suggests that you make regular donations (I think the good old 10% tythe) annually and including the Foundation in your will.

Where do I sign?..

Ironically, I first heard about Rael at a spiritual fair I was attending on the Gold Coast in the early 1990s. I just caught the last half of the lecture and just managed to avoid the hat being passed around at the end. Years later when I heard of Michel, I immediately assumed they were one and the same (it was a natural assumption - what's the odds of two Frenchman who were abducted by ETs?). And that's my point: Organisations like this can - and do - damage the true message that Michel shares.

I would love for others to expand upon their knowledge / understanding of the Raelians. I have not considered this carefully here, just rattled it off quickly in response to your query.
"The unexamined life is not worth living."
~ Socrates
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