Healthy diet: meat or no meat?

[SteppesWolf]

Hello there.
http://bioresonant.com/cgi-bin/htmlos.c ... 783945100?
This is a link to a discussion in TFOC reader forum about the consumption of meat, in which it is stated that Dr. Tom wrote in his book, The Joy of Perfect Health that "humans are not designed to eat meat".
I do not agree with this statement, for several reasons.
Other than what sciences has to say about the omnivorous nature of Humans, the need of meat consumption is mentioned many times in the Book (TP) naturally, without condemning it or stressing vegetarianism.
P.32-33:

‘But, coming back to the planet Bakaratini, 150 years after the nuclear
holocaust, we wanted to help these people.’
‘Their immediate need was food. Still they were subsisting essentially from
products of the sea, resorting occasionally to cannibalism to satisfy their
omnivorous yearnings. They needed vegetables and a source of meat. Vegetables,
fruit trees, grains, animals - all that was edible had disappeared from the planet.
(...)
‘Next, we had to re-introduce livestock, plants and trees on the planet according
to the species known to have adapted climatically in specific regions before the
catastrophe. This too, was relatively easy...’

P.100, in the market of the legendary Savanasa, capital of Mu.

There were fish, among which I recognised tuna, mackerel, bonitoes and rays;
there was meat of many varieties as well as an incredible assortment of
vegetables.

I would like to remind that this was in fact the capital of spiritual development and was far from primitive, which means that the consumption of meat does not make one 'primitive' and vegetarianism is not a necessary sign of spiritual development.

finally, p.175, postscript:

you will make a ‘return to nature’ and you will be the first to do this seriously.
What do you need for your survival? Air, water, bread,
vegetables and meat.

Tom's argument was 'Do you know what diseases an animal had before it was killed for meat?'
The answer is Yes. How come? because i never *buy* meat. The only meat i consume comes from animals that i either raised myself (naturally) or hunted in the wild. And i am far from excessive in both options, because money means nothing to me. Thus i do not use chemicals on my animals to "sell more", and i never overhunt (or hunt predator type animals which i love and admire), i only take what i need. My knowledge of the wild allows me to know what to hunt and what not to hunt and when, therefore i never cause damage to nature, which would be against my own principles.
Products from animals you raise yourself are much safer than those you buy from shops and much higher in quality, because you know and love the animal, and you have cared for it extensively. Another even better choice is wild animals, which provide the BEST quality, because they are free self sufficient (thus happy and healthy) creatures, unlike domesticated varieties which are usually lazier, less self confident and less physically developed. For example Chukar meat is far better than ANY chicken variety i have ever tasted.
I'd like to point out that while meat is an important part of diet, it should not be overconsumed, in which case it will do more harm than good. The dominant share of a healthy diet goes to water, fruits and vegetables, while meat should be consumed on average about once or twice per week (quantity and frequency of consumption depend on the individual and his or her physical needs)

Thanks for reading, please let me know your thoughts about this.

[Essene]

Thanks for the input and welcome to our forum. Vegetarianism and meat eating has often been a topic of discussion on these forums. I myself have tried going vegetarian for a month and to be honest didn't notice any significant change which would lead me to continue doing so. It also seems that meat eating is not put down in TP as the examples you provided show.

Thats great that you are in a position to raise your own meat and hunt it. Where do you live may I ask?

[bhuvan]

The places you quoted are from earth. They do not say eating meat is good! Only place I found they support eating non-veg is here!

‘What you see are concentrates of the various foods - fish, vegetables etc, of the best quality prepared by excellent cooks using various special methods. When you taste it, you will find all this food excellent and very nourishing.’

My understanding is fish may be OK to eat. But in earth again the issue is pollution and fish gets polluted easily. But in thiaoouba where nature is highly developed no reason for think about pollution!

If you think humans are omnivores see this link!

http://www.goveg.com/naturalhumandiet_physiology.asp

At the end of the link they make a comparison of human with all three categories. See where we stand.

[SteppesWolf]

Thank you for your replies.
I currently live in a rural area in South Lebanon, where i have enough land belonging to my family to raise some animals optimally and hunt in several uninhabitable mountains where the species are protected by the land's natural roughness(thus the humans' incapability of encroaching upon them and destroying there habitat to expand their towns).

As for vegetarianism, please read the first paragraph i quoted: the inhabitants of Thiaoouba themselves said that the surviving populations after the nuclear holocaust on Bakaratini required "a source of meat", and that they hence provided livestock along with other things.
"we wanted to help these people", Thao said. If they truly want to help them, would they give them a source of food that is opposed to their nature??

And as for the PETA article, it is easily contested and proves little:
Fangs and Claws: these are highly developed not just for eating, but an important function of theirs is holding, killing, or constricting their prey (or foe), depending on the animal. Humans use weapons and tools for that(spears, knives, arrows etc...), hence we need not claws or large fangs to hold and kill our prey or anything else.
Stomach Acidity:
Humans don't swallow our prey whole. At all. That would simply kill them or cause great harm to their system. Swallowing your prey whole and immediately after the hunt is animalistic in nature and is no characteristic of us. Humans tend to store their food, taking what they need when they need. They will cut their meat into appropriately small pieces and chew them slowly and extensively (mechanical digestion) to minimize the need for the chemical digestion(because it uses a lot of energy and resources), thus a high stomach acidity would not be appropriate for the way humans eat.
Intestines Length: as i said, the dominant share of our diet goes inevitably to fruits and vegetables, so it is quite natural to have appropriately lengthy intestines. Because we do not eat great quantities of meat at high frequency, what little meat goes in is easily and quickly digested (this is optimized by our eating style as i mentioned under 'Stomach Acidity') poses no threat to our system. This is also improved by the consumption of a high quality meat from healthy animals rather than that from animals industriously farmed (like chicken, disgustingly kept in very small cages for their entire lifetime, injected with chems and hormones, and living no real life).

[ptex]

Welcome to the forum SteppesWolf!

A good point you make. I was a vegan for over 1 year and I remember the challenge of it and the associated effort.
But when you start your spiritual practices, sooner or later, you'll feel the need for more subtle food, food which doesn't interfere so much with your psyche and here of course vegetarianism is usually the only way but it's a natural outcome and whoever reaches there does this rather consciously and not because they were told or asked to. I mention this because many spiritual practices require strict vegetarian diet... and people who venture into them face the need to make this change even if they're not ready to do it.

I was also puzzled by Thao's description of what happened in planet Bakaratini. It makes me remember the words of Master Ching Hai, who teaches the Quan Yin meditation method and whose followers observe a rigorous vegan diet. The story is more or less like this: the Master and a disciple were walking through the streets of a big city and found a very thin, clearly undernourished man by the sidewalk, the master asked the disciple to quickly go and buy a hot dog and to the disciple's words of astonishment and disbelief the Master replied: first we need to handle this poor man's physical needs only then we can address his other needs.

In case we face global disruption of our system whatever the reason, I personally don't see the possibility to hunt or raise animals for consumption therefore I'd have to resort to a mix of vegetarianism and fish eating, so I see that the chances of survival in your case, SteppesWolf, would probably be higher. This is most likely a cultural thing than anything else, the idea of killing an animal whatever the reason except as a last resort in self defense is unthinkable for me.

[SteppesWolf]

Fish are animals too, are they not?
And vegetables, when for instance you tear lettuce or a cabbage or anything else from it's roots in the earth in order to eat it, you are effectively killing it, even if it lacks the appropriate nervous/physical response to express it's harm(to scream in pain). The only exception to this seems to eat fruits from a tree.
However, in general, there can be no life(Yang) where there is no death(Yin). Death is life's counterpart in nature, and while apparently negative, it is nevertheless necessary for the natural order of things in the long run. When an animal dies, neither it's soul or it's body are 'lost', they are instead used to sustain life or create a new one.
So you shouldn't feel bad when you kill an animal for food. Instead you should thank it for what you are about to take from it. On the other hand killing for fun, sport, or simply no reason is what should cause you to suffer.

[ptex]

On the other hand killing for fun, sport, or simply no reason is what should cause you to suffer.

Not only that, suffering is directly related with the amount of individual awareness and disregard of Universal (natural) law.

I don't have much to add to what you said, except complement something which has to do with each being's consciousness level.
It's generally believed (recently backed up by a great number of scientific studies) that the healthiest, more easily digested and subtle food comes from beings with lower consciousness level (eg. vegetables and fruits). Animals with higher consciousness level are somewhat conscious of their suffering and death and release a toxin in the moment of death which is harmful to us. Aggressiveness may be related with this.

"Nothing will benefit human health and increase chances of survival for life on Earth as much as the evolution to a vegetarian diet."
~Albert Einstein, physicist, Nobel Prize 1921

[Essene]

Can I ask Ptex, does that mean you don't have any animal products, including milk and cheese?

[ptex]

don't get me wrong, I'm no longer a vegetarian for quite a while but during the period I was I didn't completely rule out animal products with the exception of meat (all types and forms), eggs and animal derivatives (include here all those "e"-numbers who although not from animal origin, are harmful to us - when shopping I always carried a list of those e-NNN products).

Nowadays I eat almost everything, avoiding as much red meat as possible and I give preference to a good vegetarian meal, but it depends and is not always like that

[Zark]

ptex, I agree very much. Our attitudes to meat and vegetarianism are very much culturally based.

I have visited a couple of churches, including seventh day adventists. I was really surprised to hear that they were vegetarian as I had come to the conclusion that all christian sects were pro-meat and often even anti-vegetarianism [such are their cultural biases that they want to believe everyone who lives differently from them must necessarily be 'bad' or even 'evil']. These adventists I met are almost vegan and don't drink alcohol. They absolutely are not weak, puny or unhealthy, I can vouch for that.

Leaving criticism of their beliefs aside [which would require a separate thread]..I read an article about the adventists in the news and these folk live about 7 years longer than others of their kin who are not vegetarian. The scientists were able to take a large sample size and compare it to other people with the same genetic heritage.. thereby leaving only environmental factors..ie. diet, and I suppose the friendship and sense of community/belonging that they get from their church.

All this said, I am not a vegetarian. However I will defend others who choose to be a vegetarian, whether it be for moral, psyche, or health reasons.

[bhuvan]

Fish are animals too, are they not?
And vegetables, when for instance you tear lettuce or a cabbage or anything else from it's roots in the earth in order to eat it, you are effectively killing it, even if it lacks the appropriate nervous/physical response to express it's harm(to scream in pain). The only exception to this seems to eat fruits from a tree.

What I meant was fish may be good, but that doesn't mean that you should eat it. You can make your choice. If you get the same nutrition without killing a being go for it.

At some point I thought milk is good for health until I gone through this site.

http://notmilk.com/

You are comparing Thiaooubians with us. They can even raise the dead! Now imagine the possibilities.

Now when they talked about humans in earth they cannot insist them to eat according to "their" wish. May be they know what they were eating and just supported it! A small baby need more care and more resources where as a grown up know how to survive with less resources but make better choices!

Check out this link too!

http://books.google.com/books?id=cCPkeR ... vs#PPP1,M1

We actually get all our nutrition from raw vegetables and fruits. The interesting thing is if we eat them raw we use less resources and gain more since cooking cause to lose many thing that is important.

[bhuvan]

However, in general, there can be no life(Yang) where there is no death(Yin). Death is life's counterpart in nature, and while apparently negative, it is nevertheless necessary for the natural order of things in the long run. When an animal dies, neither it's soul or it's body are 'lost', they are instead used to sustain life or create a new one.
So you shouldn't feel bad when you kill an animal for food. Instead you should thank it for what you are about to take from it. On the other hand killing for fun, sport, or simply no reason is what should cause you to suffer.

Is there issue in killing in Human too? They too have their life after death and the cycle will continue right?

See this!

‘‘If the people on Earth are wiped out by a nuclear cataclysm, their Astral beings will go where they must after death and the natural order of death and
rebirth will be maintained. The danger does not lie in the death of the physical body, as millions believe: the danger exists in the way in which one lives."

This too!

Our food here is prepared in such a way that the calories contained in the food are released at regular intervals over a twoday period. We continue to be nourished without overloading our stomachs. This also allows our minds to remain clear and alert and, after all, our minds must be a priority - isn’t that so?’ I nodded my agreement.

Do you think they eat meat to achieve this? Or do they prefer food like manna and hydromel? It is upto you to make intelligent choice. You can make progress in spiritual path or stay there. You don't have to worry about others. When you make intelligent choices it becomes acceptable to those who are intelligent and supports the plan of the highest intelligent being - god!

Recently I saw a news in BBC where it shown that a lion is unable to walk . It was a forest in Kenya. The reason was somehow pesticides and such chemicals got mixed with river water which drank by Hippos. The Hippos didn't show the symptoms, but those who ate Hippos - the lions got affected. You may be wondering why those who ate primary source of poison didn't die.

See an excerpt from Tom Chalko's book the Joy of Perfect Health.

below I give only a summary of the reasons
taken from a single point of view: the poisoning of our body.

• Animals consume large amount of food, before they become killed for meat. For example, a cow eats about 30 kg of food each day. By the time it is 3 years old it has consumed at least 30 tonnes of food. A cow’s body makes every attempt to excrete toxins. As with us humans, not all toxins are excreted. Those which are deposited around the body are of the worst kind: everything easy to metabolize would have already been excreted. As a result, a 100 kg of meat contains the worst combination of toxins, concentrated from about 30 tonnes of food. Summarizing, meat contains hundreds of times higher concentration of toxins, than contained in the initial food the animal has eaten.

• Drugs like anabolic steroids, antibiotics, growth hormones, and other chemicals are added to animal food to “enhance” the production of meat. Most of such drugs and chemicals are illegal for human use. I would bet, that you would not want to try such food. And yet, resulting animal meat contains greater
concentration of worst toxins than the initial animal food.

• Animals get sick. You do not know what sickness an animal had developed before it was killed for meat. The combination of bacteria and parasite activity in a sick animal produces toxic cocktails you do not want to hear about. The meat from such animal contains a full cocktail, because the animal stopped living before it had a chance to metabolize and excrete any part of it.

• Animals have parasites, living in various stages in various parts of their bodies. All parasites have a very complex life cycle comprising many stages. This simply speaking ensures their survival. Meat of course contains parasites in various stages, some of which are very difficult to detect and eliminate, even in the cooking process. You do not want to hear just what animal parasites are capable of doing to your body.

• Humans have a very long intestinal tract, typical to all plant eating creatures. All meat eaters have several times shorter intestines. What does this have to do with poisoning? Quite a bit. Meat in a long intestine spends a long time, before it is excreted. Too long. Not only is it more difficult to digest and more toxic to start with, but because it spends too much time inside us, it actually clogs the system and starts to rot. When the system is even partially constipated, the waste is actually absorbed back into the blood stream.

[SteppesWolf]

With all due respect you seem essentially fixed and unyielding in your point of view on veganism to the point where dialog is of little meaning. You simply refuse to accept the possibility that a balanced consumption of meat may be useful for health.
Concerning the Thiaoouban interaction with the humans, the text is very clear and simple and i fail to see a reason for all the 'maybes' you are inserting... other than attempting to sympathize it with your views alone, while disregarding what it's simply (and non-mysteriously)talking about. You are clinging to very small and vague details while deliberately missing out the big picture!

Is there issue in killing in Human too? They too have their life after death and the cycle will continue right?

Have i stated otherwise?
Both humans and animals die and are reborn regularly, both fulfill (or attempt to fulfill) their purpose of existence during physical lives and both eventually lose their bodies and continue their spiritual cycle. Physical bodies, in the long run, are of little importance. Mere vehicles we and they use.

Do you think they eat meat to achieve this? Or do they prefer food like manna and hydromel? It is upto you to make intelligent choice. You can make progress in spiritual path or stay there. You don't have to worry about others. When you make intelligent choices it becomes acceptable to those who are intelligent and supports the plan of the highest intelligent being - god!

There, once again you get in a small circle and try to overlap the whole thing.
You said and quoted it previously yourself, thiaooubans(In Thiaoouba, not just earth) have fish among their list of food "prepared by excellent cooks using various special methods". You are contradicting yourself, thus reducing your own credibility.
And you also imply by saying "You can make progress in spiritual path or stay there" that I lack spiritual development, just because i disagree with YOUR eating habits? What a great point

If you awaken your mind and merely accept to ponder the possibility that veganism is not the "only way" and that "every other option NEEDS to be rejected immediately no matter what", you'll notice that my theory is quite reasonable - I never said that we have to eat massive amounts of meat and ignore fruits and vegetables; I EMPHASIZED the exact opposite: I said that meat should be consumed in small quantities at low frequencies in the purpose of maintaining health and vigor of the physical body (especially for athletic characters or people who need a powerful, efficient body to survive harder environments where food and comfort are not taken for granted) and that the larger, major portion goes to fruits and vegetables. This is, in my opinion, the healthiest, most balanced way to go and it DOES still account for clarity of mind for spiritual endeavors, as long as of course you make sure that the meat consumed is toxin free.
In fact, i believe veganism works only for sedentary, city dwelling folks that make virtually no use of their muscular and cardiovascular system, thus missing out a huge and beautiful part of life to explore.

I would add also, that quiet frankly, i see little significant difference between meat and fish, especially when you take into account the variety that edible fish comes with.

As for the parts you quoted from Tom's book, i had already replied to the same arguments previously. And as i am not fond of repeating myself (in fact i hate it), i will only reply in a nutshell now as a reminder, leaving you free to refer to my previous posts for the full argumentation. I will also include here what i have to say about the lion that was poisoned.

the hyppo that lion preyed upon had consumed food that is polluted with various chemicals as you said. However, if you read my post you'll remember that i said that i only consume meat from animals i either raised myself or hunted myself; I know my lands very well, i use no kinds of chemicals on them and it they perfectly safe from being contaminated from other sources. I make sure of that daily. Thus my animals can only enjoy a natural, healthy diet from their original habitat. No risk for toxin accumulation while living in the natural way they are supposed to live in. The same applies to the hunting grounds, they are too distant, rugged and wild to be affected by any possibly poisonous elements used by humans.
-Growth hormones, steroids and drugs: As i already said and explained why, i don't use them.
- Animals get sick: I already explained as they are my own animals that i see and care for everyday. i know of the their state of health. I raised them myself. Tom is discussing against buying meat from stores in which case you have no idea where it came from, what it was fed and treated with and how many diseases it had.
-Parasites: As with humans, happy and self confident animals are much less prone to diseases and parasites. In industrial farms, happiness and self confidence are at minimum: the animals are cruelly kept in tiny cages for their entire lifetime. They feel ill, sad and depressed. So yes, they do develop a whole lot of parasites. On the other hand, happy, freely roaming animals in their natural habitat (like here) present little risk for parasites.
-Long intestinal tract: I already discussed this replying to the PETA article. Check out what i wrote again.
I hope that you read what i've just written in an open minded, non biased, non prejudiced manner.

[bhuvan]

I was a meat eater too. Probably I never bothered about diet at all. But when I did and done a research more and more I found that vegetariasim is much better than any other diet. If you "think" eating meat is make you strong and have strong muscles you should come to India and see the yogis. They have much flexibility and strength than anyone else in even very old ages. They climb on tree and show different postures in the branches. They eat only vegetarian food. Since I cannot show it here see a person from US challenging demonstrating his capabilities being a vegan!

http://www.naturalnews.com/023476.html
The video is here http://www.naturalnews.com/023475.html

Watch till the end and decide yourself. The person is not only vegan rather promotes green foods. In fact his challenge is not against meat eaters, ut big pharma. But he challenges big pharma becasue he even claims that he reverse disease condistions through green foods.

Being strong is just another choice. You can be strong being a vegan and have strong muscles with vegan diet. Why not? What is there in meat is there in vegetables too. There are bad vegetables too! The link for the book rawsome actually explains it! In spiritual point if view it is better to reduce the intake of food so that we do not clog our mind much and intelectuual resources are free. But if you eat lot of sugar and rice you cannot achieve it. The best diet is to find out good source protein and other essential nutrients from plant source and consume only what you need everyday. Most of the nutrients you need is very less, but you need them. For example B12 you need per day is 3 micro gram (not even milli gram!). For that you don't need to consume vitamin tablets everyday. A few grams of spirulina will do. Again you don't need to cosume it everyday cnce it is stored for future use!

Read the rawsome book (google link I gave) and see that where you get the nutrients from plant source! You can them all!

[Robanan]

Clean meat = good to eat = almost nowhere to be found

Expensive too, I find it better to sometime save the money and go to a sauna or buy tickets and watch a movie at the cinema with my girlfriend + pop corns. Can't giveup on meat completely though... I still eat meat twice every week at least.