Evidence of Design in the Universe

Discussion on technology and how it could be used to assist spiritual development and NOT enslave us. This includes technology that will help us live in harmony with Nature (e.g.: "Lifter" technologies that could replace the petrol driven engine). Also, discussion of past and current scientific thought so that gems are not buried in the sands of time, and spiritual progress through science is achieved.

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Vesko
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Post: # 2765Post Vesko »

As an illustration of some of my views I've expressed on this topic, I present one expert view of a scientist who disputes the infinite universes and random process theories I've politely confronted Dr. Tom Chalko with, and which the latter disputes, too, but via his book "The Freedom of Choice" claims to have "proven explicitly" with "clear logic and rational conclusions [that] can withstand the highest scientific scrutiny" -- direct quotes from Dr. Chalko's current web page at http://www.thefreedomofchoice.com, you can verify that (the emphasis is mine). My opinion is that the following scientist is more objective than his colleague, Dr. Chalko, in his presenting his views based on the availability of hard scientific data, because he never claims he has proof (in the highest scientific scrutiny sense). I strongly believe objectivity is extremely important, because it helps us -- both experts and non-experts -- see all the different sides of something in the proper light, thus helping come up with the right solution in the most efficient way.

From the Edge World Question Center 2005, http://www.edge.org/q2005/q05_easyprint.html:
PAUL STEINHARDT
Albert Einstein Professor of Physics, Princeton University.

I believe that our universe is not accidental, but I cannot prove it.

Historically, most physicists have shared this point-of-view. For centuries, most of us have believed that the universe is governed by a simple set of physical laws that are the same everywhere and that these laws derive from a simple unified theory.

However, in the last few years, an increasing number of my most respected colleagues have become enamored with the anthropic principle—the idea that there is an enormous multiplicity of universes with widely different physical properties and the properties of our particular observable universe arise from pure accident. The only special feature of our universe is that its properties are compatible with the evolution of intelligent life. The change in attitude is motivated, in part, by the failure to date to find a unified theory that predicts our universe as the unique possibility. According to some recent calculations, the current best hope for a unified theory—superstring theory—allows an exponentially large number of different universes, most of which look nothing like our own. String theorists have turned to the anthropic principle for salvation.

Frankly, I view this as an act of desperation. I don't have much patience for the anthropic principle. I think the concept is, at heart, non-scientific. A proper scientific theory is based on testable assumptions and is judged by its predictive power. The anthropic principle makes an enormous number of assumptions—regarding the existence of multiple universes, a random creation process, probability distributions that determine the likelihood of different features, etc.—none of which are testable because they entail hypothetical regions of spacetime that are forever beyond the reach of observation. As for predictions, there are very few, if any. In the case of string theory, the principle is invoked only to explain known observations, not to predict new ones. (In other versions of the anthropic principle where predictions are made, the predictions have proven to be wrong. Some physicists cite the recent evidence for a cosmological constant as having anticipated by anthropic argument; however, the observed value does not agree with the anthropically predicted value.)

I find the desperation especially unwarranted since I see no evidence that our universe arose by a random process. Quite the contrary, recent observations and experiments suggest that our universe is extremely simple. The distribution of matter and energy is remarkably uniform. The hierarchy of complex structures ranging from galaxy clusters to subnuclear particles can all be described in terms of a few dozen elementary constituents and less than a handful of forces, all related by simple symmetries. A simple universe demands a simple explanation. Why do we need to postulate an infinite number of universes with all sorts of different properties just to explain our one?

Of course, my colleagues and I are anxious for further reductionism. But I view the current failure of string theory to find a unique universe simply as a sign that our understanding of string theory is still immature (or perhaps that string theory is wrong). Decades from now, I hope that physicists will be pursuing once again their dreams of a truly scientific "final theory" and will look back at the current anthropic craze as millennial madness.
As an illustration that some of those strange theories alternative to intelligent creation are still viable, here's another one:
LAWRENCE KRAUSS
Physicist, Case Western Reserve University; Author, Atom

I believe our universe is not unique. As science has evolved, our place within the universe has continued to diminish in significance.

First it was felt that the Earth was the center of the universe, then that our Sun was the center, and so on. Ultimately we now realize that we are located at the edge of a random galaxy that is itself located nowhere special in a large, potentially infinite universe full of other galaxies. Moreover, we now know that even the stars and visible galaxies themselves are but an insignificant bit of visible pollution in a universe that is otherwise dominated by 'stuff' that doesn't shine.

Dark matter dominates the masses of galaxies and clusters by a factor of 10 compared to normal matter. And now we have discovered that even matter itself is almost insignificant. Instead empty space itself contains more than twice as much energy as that associated with all matter, including dark matter, in the universe. Further, as we ponder the origin of our universe, and the nature of the strange dark energy that dominates it, every plausible theory that I know of suggests that the Big Bang that created our visible universe was not unique. There are likely to be a large, and possibly infinite number of other universes out there, some of which may be experiencing Big Bangs at the current moment, and some of which may have already collapsed inward into Big Crunches. From a philosophical perspective this may be satisfying to some, who find a universe with a definite beginning but no definite end dissatisfying. In this case, in the 'metaverse', or 'multiverse' things may seem much more uniform in time.

At every instant there may be many universes being born, and others dying. But philosophy aside, the existence of many different causally disconnected universes—regions with which we will never ever be able to have direct communication, and thus which will forever be out of reach of direct empirical verification—may have significant impacts on our understanding of our own universe. Their existence may help explain why our own universe has certain otherwise unexpected features, because in a metaverse with a possibly infinite number of different universes, which may themselves vary in their fundamental features, it could be that life like our own would evolve in only universes with a special set of characteristics.

Whether or not this anthropic type of argument is necessary to understand our universe—and I personally hope it isn't—I nevertheless find it satisfying to think that it is likely that not only are we not located in a particularly special place in our universe, but that our universe itself may be relatively insignificant on a larger cosmic scale. It represents perhaps the ultimate Copernican Revolution.
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bomohwkl
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Post: # 2767Post bomohwkl »

To give a material proof and to write equation to prove the existence of creator will never be able to prove it. Most people including scientitsts want this kind of proof. You will never get it. The creation of infinite number of universes from randomness is just silly. Unfortunately, I lack of time to forth the opinion.
Vesko
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Post: # 2769Post Vesko »

bomohwkl wrote:To give a material proof and to write equation to prove the existence of creator will never be able to prove it. Most people including scientitsts want this kind of proof. You will never get it.
One cannot be sure that we will never be able to prove it rigorously, and that we will never get it -- what is impossible today, may be a snap tomorrow. I think it's a good rule of thumb to never say never about such complex things.
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bomohwkl
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Post: # 2770Post bomohwkl »

One cannot be sure that we will never be able to prove it rigorously, and that we will never get it -- what is impossible today, may be a snap tomorrow. I think it's a good rule of thumb to never say never about such complex things.
Gravity seems to be so complex. Probably we should admit the possibility and prove it that water do indeed flow from the sea to the mountain. I don't think it is a good rule of thumb if the admittance of such possibility fail to produce greater conherency and consistency of the observation and logic. Only having consistency and coherency that we could explore further than the unknown. For building a tall buiding requires strong foundation. If not the building cannot build high and risk of collapsing. One could end up asking senseless questions for the rest of the time.
Vesko
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Post: # 2771Post Vesko »

We are currently talking about proving beyond reasonable doubt and in a rigorous scientific manner the existence of an intelligent creator. According to you latest post, the admittance of a possibility that such a proof of this is possible, is senseless. Do you really want to state that, being a physics science student, and considering that our science is very young?
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Robanan
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Post: # 2832Post Robanan »

Considering all that has been discussed in this forum, and the current level of scientific development, while speaking out of my own understanding of certain facts; I want to conclude that:
The only thing that we can prove "beyond reasonable doubt" not only "in a rigorous scientific manner" is that the probability of the universe being actually imagined, designed and created by a very very intelligent creator is much higher than the probability of any other imagined scenario regarding the origin of the universe being actually true.

By observing and researching the contrast between the probability of our universe to be of random origin and the probability of our universe to be the result of intelligent effort. I'm most inclined to "choose" the most probable scenario and see for observable evidence to proove me right or wrong. I am sure the result of my choice would show me the right path forward toward further insights.
PAUL STEINHARDT
Albert Einstein Professor of Physics, Princeton University.

I believe that our universe is not accidental, but I cannot prove it.

Historically, most physicists have shared this point-of-view. For centuries, most of us have believed that the universe is governed by a simple set of physical laws that are the same everywhere and that these laws derive from a simple unified theory.

However, in the last few years, an increasing number of my most respected colleagues have become enamored with the anthropic principle—the idea that there is an enormous multiplicity of universes with widely different physical properties and the properties of our particular observable universe arise from pure accident. The only special feature of our universe is that its properties are compatible with the evolution of intelligent life. The change in attitude is motivated, in part, by the failure to date to find a unified theory that predicts our universe as the unique possibility. According to some recent calculations, the current best hope for a unified theory—superstring theory—allows an exponentially large number of different universes, most of which look nothing like our own. String theorists have turned to the anthropic principle for salvation.

Frankly, I view this as an act of desperation. I don't have much patience for the anthropic principle. I think the concept is, at heart, non-scientific. A proper scientific theory is based on testable assumptions and is judged by its predictive power. The anthropic principle makes an enormous number of assumptions—regarding the existence of multiple universes, a random creation process, probability distributions that determine the likelihood of different features, etc.—none of which are testable because they entail hypothetical regions of spacetime that are forever beyond the reach of observation. As for predictions, there are very few, if any. In the case of string theory, the principle is invoked only to explain known observations, not to predict new ones. (In other versions of the anthropic principle where predictions are made, the predictions have proven to be wrong. Some physicists cite the recent evidence for a cosmological constant as having anticipated by anthropic argument; however, the observed value does not agree with the anthropically predicted value.)

I find the desperation especially unwarranted since I see no evidence that our universe arose by a random process. Quite the contrary, recent observations and experiments suggest that our universe is extremely simple. The distribution of matter and energy is remarkably uniform. The hierarchy of complex structures ranging from galaxy clusters to subnuclear particles can all be described in terms of a few dozen elementary constituents and less than a handful of forces, all related by simple symmetries. A simple universe demands a simple explanation. Why do we need to postulate an infinite number of universes with all sorts of different properties just to explain our one?

Of course, my colleagues and I are anxious for further reductionism. But I view the current failure of string theory to find a unique universe simply as a sign that our understanding of string theory is still immature (or perhaps that string theory is wrong). Decades from now, I hope that physicists will be pursuing once again their dreams of a truly scientific "final theory" and will look back at the current anthropic craze as millennial madness.
LAWRENCE KRAUSS
Physicist, Case Western Reserve University; Author, Atom

I believe our universe is not unique. As science has evolved, our place within the universe has continued to diminish in significance.

First it was felt that the Earth was the center of the universe, then that our Sun was the center, and so on. Ultimately we now realize that we are located at the edge of a random galaxy that is itself located nowhere special in a large, potentially infinite universe full of other galaxies. Moreover, we now know that even the stars and visible galaxies themselves are but an insignificant bit of visible pollution in a universe that is otherwise dominated by 'stuff' that doesn't shine.

Dark matter dominates the masses of galaxies and clusters by a factor of 10 compared to normal matter. And now we have discovered that even matter itself is almost insignificant. Instead empty space itself contains more than twice as much energy as that associated with all matter, including dark matter, in the universe. Further, as we ponder the origin of our universe, and the nature of the strange dark energy that dominates it, every plausible theory that I know of suggests that the Big Bang that created our visible universe was not unique. There are likely to be a large, and possibly infinite number of other universes out there, some of which may be experiencing Big Bangs at the current moment, and some of which may have already collapsed inward into Big Crunches. From a philosophical perspective this may be satisfying to some, who find a universe with a definite beginning but no definite end dissatisfying. In this case, in the 'metaverse', or 'multiverse' things may seem much more uniform in time.

At every instant there may be many universes being born, and others dying. But philosophy aside, the existence of many different causally disconnected universes—regions with which we will never ever be able to have direct communication, and thus which will forever be out of reach of direct empirical verification—may have significant impacts on our understanding of our own universe. Their existence may help explain why our own universe has certain otherwise unexpected features, because in a metaverse with a possibly infinite number of different universes, which may themselves vary in their fundamental features, it could be that life like our own would evolve in only universes with a special set of characteristics.

Whether or not this anthropic type of argument is necessary to understand our universe—and I personally hope it isn't—I nevertheless find it satisfying to think that it is likely that not only are we not located in a particularly special place in our universe, but that our universe itself may be relatively insignificant on a larger cosmic scale. It represents perhaps the ultimate Copernican Revolution.
Let's consider the number: 28101980 (My birth Date)
What are the necessary conditions for this number to "appear"? What is the probability of this number "appearing" out of all other possible numbers which might appear, given the same conditions? What are the chances that exactly the appearances of this number would be fixed and saved by a system which does not "apply any control/filtering (an intellectual effort)" over the results of random number appearances?

The chances are so small...

This question has turned for me into a matter of choice, a choice between the most and the less probable scenario regarding the origin of our universe. I have consciously chosen to ignore less probable scenarios regarding questions that I cannot verify through direct observation, deliberately.

I confirm that it's not currently possible for us to say "Exactly" which probable scenario reflects the immutable "truth" of our universe.

This "Fact" in turn points toward another possible probability... the probability of the existence of a loveable and loving creator. A creator who seems to enjoy being found and "re-found" out of millions and millions of other probable possibilities, man can imagine.
Vesko wrote: what is this "You know that the law of contrasts is a universal law"? I don't know that. What law of contrasts? So are you saying God had to exist from the beginning because of such a law of contrasts? Can you tell us more about this law of contrasts? And again, why God emerged because of this necessary duality / law of contrasts, if I understand you correctly about this?
I'm saying that it's right to consider existing observable phenomena to be actually perturbations of singular perturbable entities.

By considering my own perception with its related senses as my own personal research and experiment tool/instrument, While also considering the requirements of anything "to be" observable for us in first place, I noticed the fact that all observable phenomena have one thing in common:
All observable phenomena have an observable contrast related closely to their "common existence" as "observable phenomena".

This "Fact" (Which is in turn observable) has persuaded me to think that any irreducible quanta of any existing entity must be completely identical in their essence. Otherwise we would not have been able to see things and distinguish them while at the same time categorizing them to specific classes of objects, hear music and like it/enjoy it while still understanding different sounds to be at it's fundamental basis or feel the taste of an apple while still understanding the difference between the taste and the aroma. Is it a coincidence that our perception facilities can only be stimulated by and are carefully set to percieve "certain" perturbances of "specific" singular entities?

It is possible to Identify the singular perturbable essence of all observable phenomena. What should we call the singular perturbable essence of all Matter-Energy that we already have understood to be actually the "same" thing?
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VeskoP
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Post: # 3312Post VeskoP »

Moderator note: The following is from the "Civic Responsibility?" topic in the "General Discussion" forum. It is reproduced here for clarification and avoidance of potential misunderstandings when reading the present topic:
Robanan wrote:
Vesko wrote:...I am considerably convinced that there is an intelligent Creator, and myself do not need to keep an open mind about possibly descending from the apes any more. On that topic I only wanted to make it clear that nobody on our planet has been able to prove in a rigorous scientific manner, even if they claim so, that an intelligent Creator exists. In fact, is bad to claim so, because you can be rightfully labelled as illogical, a crackpot, a nutcase, etc. Again, I am convinced that such a Creator exists, however it is one thing to be convinced, another thing to be able to prove in rigorous formal scientific terms, so I just do not state I have proved it. I am sorry if you have misunderstood me.
-The bold is my emphasis.

Thank you Vesko, I appreciate your effort for bringing this point into the light. We discussed numerous things under that topic, please understand that I could only answer for myself and things that I said myself. Your contribution is righteous and full of care.

I bolded that proportion of your post in the quote above, since I want to say that I agree with you. That was the point that I did not understand before, and it was something I learned during the time the discussions on the topic were still going on.

Please note on my behalf that given the "current" rigorous formal scientific terms and outlooks, I think that it is not "yet" the time for such a proof to appear. We may be able to "improve" our "foundation of values" later.
Last edited by VeskoP on Fri Mar 04, 2005 12:37 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Vesko
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Post: # 3313Post Vesko »

Very good. I agree -- by the time not being opportune, I gather you mean that our category is possibly not meant to be 100% sure, i.e. it may be beyond us, right? If this is what you mean, I agree with that, too.
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Robanan
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Post: # 3322Post Robanan »

Vesko wrote:...you mean that our category is possibly not meant to be 100% sure...
That too Vesko, I'm still thinking about it, but the book is pretty clear and it shows that we can improve our "foundation of values" remarkably (like the people of "Mu" and the "Martians" etc. did) as we become more and more spiritually advanced. We will need to make new scientific terms (or thoroughly explain the current ones by re-discovering their true meanings and definitions) which may enable us to create more and more valuable proof in the future, this in turn is something that our forum "can" provide since we can create topics under which we can "discuss" and "research" the whole thing with the aim to "improve" the "foundation of values" of the current scientific establishment.
I have, quite a pretty huge pack of ideas regarding all this. We have the possibility and the ability to redirect the whole scientific establishment of our planet away, from the self-destruction path it's undertaking.
Vesko wrote:...it may be beyond us...
Given the current situation, "yes". What if we "decide" to improve the current situation? What if we will make a scientific "evolution" possible?
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Alisima
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Post: # 3328Post Alisima »

Robanan wrote:
Vesko wrote:...it may be beyond us...
Given the current situation, "yes". What if we "decide" to improve the current situation? What if we will make a scientific "evolution" possible?
I will repeat what Tom has said, although somewhat in my own words: "It is not what you do, but why you do it."

I don't think that there is anything beyond us. I think that everything we wish to become we in fact already are, it is the wishing itself which forbids us to see. We need to drop our ideals and become being.
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Robanan
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Post: # 3331Post Robanan »

Alisima wrote:I will repeat what Tom has said, although somewhat in my own words: "It is not what you do, but why you do it."
I think we have enough reasons to introduce improvments to the way things are on our planet.
Alisima wrote:I don't think that there is anything beyond us
Theoretically yes, so we can introduce improvements that we deem necessary. I think that verification, clarification, and re-evaluation is a good start.
Alisima wrote: I think that everything we wish to become we in fact already are,...
I don't think so,
Alisima wrote:...it is the wishing itself which forbids us to see. We need to drop our ideals and become being.
Why should I drop my ideals? I thought you said that I just have to "whish" in order to "become being".
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Alisima
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Post: # 3335Post Alisima »

Robanan wrote:I think we have enough reasons to introduce improvments to the way things are on our planet.
Oke, give me one. Why would you try to improve anything at all? Do you think the 'Creator' really creates a world wherein he needs YOU to improve something? Or to put it in other words, would you create something with flaws?? Nature is already perfect, no need to improve it.
Robanan wrote:Theoretically yes, so we can introduce improvements that we deem necessary.
And again, show me an example of such an improvement.
Robanan wrote:I thought you said that I just have to "whish" in order to "become being".
I never said you need to wish in order to become being, I said you need to become being. There is a big difference in it. Wishing and actually doing something are far apart from eachother.
Robanan wrote:Why should I drop my ideals?
Because they are very hard to accomplish, if not impossible. And even IF you succeed you will create 10 new. You will go round and round in an endless circle of desires and hopes. You have ideals because you are not content with the world, in order to drop them you should grow to become more content with everything. When you have become fully satisfied you will drop all of your ideals because the ideal state has already been achieved. It is to be noted though that the emphasis lies not on the dropping of your ideals, but on becoming content. The dropping of your ideals is something that follows quickly after full satisfaction. This in fact is something many people misunderstood about Buddha. Most people who follow Buddha have tried to achieve a desireless state, this is unachievable. It is the being contect which has to be achieved. After that the dropping of your ideals follows naturally.
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Vesko
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Post: # 3336Post Vesko »

Alisima, are you serious when telling us that we should drop our ideals? All ideals? Like the ideal of becoming like Buddha? It is certainly an ideal.
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Alisima
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Post: # 3342Post Alisima »

Alisima, are you serious when telling us that we should drop our ideals? All ideals? Like the ideal of becoming like Buddha? It is certainly an ideal.
We already are Buddha, we just don't know it yet. I will remind you to what Tom said: "We are infinite potential." It is just our current intellect which holds us down.

Let me remind you that what I meant was that you first should become content and only THEN you will drop your ideals. Please note that it will not work the other way around. You first need to become content before you drop your ideals. So forget the dropping of your ideals, become content. The rest will follow.

It is very paradoxical. But on the other hand, how can you have desires when you are content? If you are content then you are "satisfied or showing satisfaction with things as they are." In other words, no ideals, for an ideal is something that one hopes to attain.

But then you can say that you never can become desireless because you desire to become desireless. And that is quite true. The solution is ofcourse that you should not desire to become desireless but just BE desireless. One can compare it with going to sleep. If you lie in bed wanting to go to sleep, desperate for some sleep, constantly reminding yourself you ought to sleep instead of to think, you will never sleep. But if you 'let go' and just let your body be, you will sleep within 5 min.

I can understand why someone would be frightened to drop his ideals. But it are our ideals which holds us down. And if you don't agree, which I fully understand, ask yourself who gave you your ideals. Where do they come from?? Are they really yours??

You have ideals because you feel something is missing. We all do, no matter how much money, wealth, sex, drugs and rock 'n roll, we all miss something. With doing righteous things you can, temporary, overcome this 'desperation'. But not forever. There will always be ups and downs. Because it is not the money, wealth, sex, drugs and rock 'n roll we want. It is something else. Think about it. What do you want?
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Robanan
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Post: # 3343Post Robanan »

Alisima wrote:
Robanan wrote:I think we have enough reasons to introduce improvments to the way things are on our planet.
Oke, give me one. Why would you try to improve anything at all? Do you think the 'Creator' really creates a world wherein he needs YOU to improve something? Or to put it in other words, would you create something with flaws?? Nature is already perfect, no need to improve it.

You understood me in a wrong context Alisima, let me explain:

It is not GOD who "needs" ME to improve something, then...

I don't "need" to improve nature, I need to improve my quality of life within and about the nature I live in. This includes "improving" my understanding of nature and my place and role in it.

Do you agree that we have to "improve" our way of living? Not for GOD's sake but for "Ourselves" (Our family, Our friends, Our neighbours, etc.). This can be achieved first when an individual realizes that he/she needs to improve his "own" way of life "first".

Alisima wrote: show me an example of such an improvement
Hydrogen engines
Alisima wrote:I never said you need to wish in order to become being, I said you need to become being. There is a big difference in it. Wishing and actually doing something are far apart from eachother.
How is it then that I need to "become" something that I already AM?
Alisima wrote:
Robanan wrote:Why should I drop my ideals?
Because they are very hard to accomplish, if not impossible. And even IF you succeed you will create 10 new. You will go round and round in an endless circle of desires and hopes. You have ideals because you are not content with the world, in order to drop them you should grow to become more content with everything. When you have become fully satisfied you will drop all of your ideals because the ideal state has already been achieved. It is to be noted though that the emphasis lies not on the dropping of your ideals, but on becoming content. The dropping of your ideals is something that follows quickly after full satisfaction. This in fact is something many people misunderstood about Buddha. Most people who follow Buddha have tried to achieve a desireless state, this is unachievable. It is the being contect which has to be achieved. After that the dropping of your ideals follows naturally.

Life teaches that people should break down those ideals that are set too high and unreachable as you say; to sequences of smaller but achievable goals, if someone's ideal is irreducible it cannot be achieved, you need your intellect all the way.

Dropping all ideals is not a prerequisite for becoming and staying happy/content. Buddah cannot be followed, the life he lived is unique as is the life of every other individual around, trying to live someone else's life is a great waste and there are severe consequences to it. Feel free to explore this fact throughout your life.
Alisima wrote:We already are Buddha, we just don't know it yet. I will remind you to what Tom said: "We are infinite potential." It is just our current intellect which holds us down.
By Considering what you said: I prefere to "Improve" my intellect so that it would "hold me up". I always keep myself happy and content with my own progress in my own life. I enjoy it (to say the least). I like the hunt more than the catch.

I am who I am and You are who You are. Buddah was who he was. Something "potential" is something that "can be" or "can become".

Do not even dare to twist Tom's words on this forum, Tom says that We are "individual intellects" with "unlimited autonomy" and "unlimited potential" to "Develop Ourselves" (the phrasing is mine and the bolding is my emphasis)

1. Unlimited is not necessarily infinite and vice versa. They are very different words.

2. Tom is talking about spiritual development and it is already clear that everyone (Buddah included) have the ability to develop spiritually.

3. The point you made is completely different and is in no way related to what Tom says. Tom never said anything like "We are already spiritually developed (like Buddah), we just don't know it".
Alisima wrote:Let me remind you that what I meant was that you first should become content and only THEN you will drop your ideals. Please note that it will not work the other way around. You first need to become content before you drop your ideals. So forget the dropping of your ideals, become content. The rest will follow.

and also...
Alisima wrote:It is very paradoxical. But on the other hand, how can you have desires when you are content? If you are content then you are "satisfied or showing satisfaction with things as they are." In other words, no ideals, for an ideal is something that one hopes to attain.
Desires and ideals are two different things, if your ideals are composed of irrelevant "desires" I agree that you should drop them. Just please notice that you can "imagine" ideals that are composed of "goals" that can be achieved to the benefit of the quality of life of either a single individual or a group of individuals.
Alisima wrote:But then you can say that you never can become desireless because you desire to become desireless. And that is quite true. The solution is ofcourse that you should not desire to become desireless but just BE desireless. One can compare it with going to sleep. If you lie in bed wanting to go to sleep, desperate for some sleep, constantly reminding yourself you ought to sleep instead of to think, you will never sleep. But if you 'let go' and just let your body be, you will sleep within 5 min
It is much better not to inhibit the universal progress of the self like that, and "learn" which desires/goals/ideals are fruitful/satisfying and which desires/goals/ideals are not fruitful/satisfying.
The essence of Consciousness, is the ability to Create, Process, Transmit and Receive Information Autonomously.
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