Evidence of Design in the Universe

[Robanan]

Given that you have a gun and you need to eat a duck. What are the chances that you would "hit a duck in the sky" if you are not aiming at it? Alisima?

[Alisima]

Ofcourse a reply like this was going to be expected. I'm not going to reply to your statements, I can easily break them, but then again, you can easily break mine. It would be an endless discussion of 'yes', 'no', 'yes', 'no'. I see no reason for it. We all have different paths and I believe we all will succeed in the end. So who is to say what is wrong and what is right?

In fact we are both wrong and yet we are both right. Do you see the irony in it? The paradox?? I certainly do. I find it quite funny actually.

One question though: "Do you see a clear distinction between the development of the intellect and that of the heart??"

[Robanan]

"Do you see a clear distinction between the development of the intellect and that of the heart??"

"You can break my posts but you'll never break my heart"
-Nimus Robanus (204 A.D.)

[Vesko]

Alisima, it's not good to say "become content", full stop, because without specifying what you have to become content about, I can construe it as "become content with one's own ignorance" . This is not a good advice for spiritual development, is it?
Also, you have stated that we are Buddha, we just don't know it yet. What is your definition of Buddha?

[Alisima]

Alisima, it's not good to say "become content", full stop, because without specifying what you have to become content about, I can construe it as "become content with one's own ignorance" . This is not a good advice for spiritual development, is it?

I'm sorry, but can't think of anyone who would interpret it like that. Let's see what the old dictionary thinks of 'content'. Content: "Satisfied or showing satisfaction with things as they are." And I think that is the general way someone would interpret 'content'.

However, let's say someone would interpret it wrong. Ofcourse, that is something which happens. And it is unavoidable, since even Jesus himself could not speak in words everyone would understand. In fact most of the people misinterpreted his teaching. Only 1 of 10000 would understand him. So it is not 'right' to judge advice by how you can misinterpret it. Simply because you can misinterpret ALL.

Also, you have stated that we are Buddha, we just don't know it yet. What is your definition of Buddha?

One who has achieved a state of perfect enlightenment.

Ofcourse it is bold to say we are already enlightened, because how can there be so much hate, violence and misery in the world?? That is because we have not yet realized it. We have not yet had the 'eureka'-moment.

But now I hear you wonder: "If we have not yet realized our enlightenment, then we are in fact not enlightened." That seems logical. However, I ask you to think what it takes to reach enlightenment?? What do you have to ADD to yourself, in order to reach enlightenment??

Think about it, not just 5 seconds, but a whole week. Contemplate on it. What does it take to reach enlightement?? An initiation?? An external event?? A touch of a guru??

[Vesko]

I don't think that just telling someone to become satisfied is good advice, because this is no advice at all. Even without following this advice, the most horrible criminal does everything they do in order to become satisfied. So what advice is this?

Re "You are Buddha" -- only knowledge has to be added, which of course means that you weren't Buddha before its addition, but having read Buddhist literature I know this is just a device (play of words) to make one think.

Do you mean that simply because it is possible to misinterpret all advice, we shouldn't minimize the chances for a particular piece of advice being misinterpreted?

For what it's worth, I'd like to say that I don't adore Buddhism. There are too many statements in Buddhist literature that can be interpreted in multiple ways, and some are impossible to pin down.

[Alisima]

I don't think that just telling someone to become satisfied is good advice, because this is no advice at all. Even without following this advice, the most horrible criminal does everything they do in order to become satisfied. So what advice is this?

Let me make it clear, I said that we need to become content. Later on I even gave a definition of content, it was: "Satisfied or showing satisfaction with things as they are." So what I said was: "we need to become satisfied with things as they are." That is what said. Not that we should create a situation in which we feel ourselves satisfied, no, I said we need to become satisfied with THIS situation, whatever the situation may be.

Ofcourse we can debate forever about whether you should change the world according to your ideals or whether you should grow to be content. I know, from the replies some of you have been giving, you choose for changing the world according to your ideals rather than becoming content, well, it is fine by me. Do whatever you think is good.

Perhapse I should have said "we may become more content" instead of "we need to become more content", please excuse me for that.

Re "You are Buddha" -- only knowledge has to be added, which of course means that you weren't Buddha before its addition, but having read Buddhist literature I know this is just a device (play of words) to make one think.

So you think enlightenment can be taught in schools?? Since it is only the addition of knowledge which is required, and knowledge can simply be taught.

I think enlightenment is an inner transformation. We only need to find the "launch" button.

Do you mean that simply because it is possible to misinterpret all advice, we shouldn't minimize the chances for a particular piece of advice being misinterpreted?

No ofcourse not. But again, that is not what I have said.

For what it's worth, I'd like to say that I don't adore Buddhism. There are too many statements in Buddhist literature that can be interpreted in multiple ways, and some are impossible to pin down.

I agree with you. The same thing happened with Buddhism as with most, if not all, religions, there teaching got twisted.

But still, there are some things which hold a great deal of truth. Like the saying: "Be a driftwood."

[Robanan]

... I said that we need to become content. Later on I even gave a definition of content, it was: "Satisfied or showing satisfaction with things as they are." So what I said was: "we need to become satisfied with things as they are." That is what said. ... I said we need to become satisfied with THIS situation, whatever the situation may be.

Perhapse I should have said "we may become more content" instead of "we need to become more content",...

At the time that an advice was given resembling the one Alisima gave (see the above quotes), people used to live far simpler lives and were living in a far simpler world. The nature of the advice is spiritual, regarding the original untouched state of everything starting from the self, up to the environment and the universe.


Let's see...

1. The Self:
The state of being content of your own self, has a direct relationship with what you accept about your self and what you don't accept about it. Tom says: Acceptance is a necessary condition for experiencing love. In this case, the need to make it possible to experience love toward your own self requires you to examine yourself and accept yourself as a whole. This includes accepting your "Intellect" and the way it works, accepting your "mind" and the way it works, accepting your "feelings" as you experience them etc. this also includes accepting the fact that "Your Intellect has an immense, unlimited potential to develop itself" the way it does. While you will also have to accept that "You also have the freedom of choice and you can use it to aim at experiencing the most wonderful feelings possible" you will have to explore and accept your autonomy, awareness, consciousness etc. as they are, without having to reject any single thing of your "original" self.
As you move forward into exploring your own self, and gather knowledge, you will find that in most cases you have a wrong impression about your self and that you really are a lovely integral entity of the whole universe, loved and able to love.

You will have to accept that you can introduce modifications to your "original" self. The fact that you are not happy with what you are shows that the quality and the level of "modifications" that you have introduced to yourself are not "acceptable" to yourself first place. It's your personal business and it's under your own responsibility toward your own self to deal with it since it's in accordance with your own personal intrests and motivations for "living a life in a phisical form".

2. Nature and the environment:
Currently there are a lot of "modifications" introduced by technology to Nature and the environment. Most of which have led to increased levels of pollution and intoxication, Increased levels of natural disasters, Increased levels of various diseases and epidemics, let alone propaganda, marketing, misinformation, wars, etc.
These things have nothing in common with the "original" state of Nature and the environment up to a very "unacceptable" level. Most of the technological "modifications" which were aimed to "alter/exploit" the way things are on our planet have brought "serious" damage to Nature and the environment. This in fact shows that what we are given by Nature and it's creator is indeed perfect for us already and that there is no need to introduce "modifications/alterations" that are "against" the way things are in it. If we consider the thiaooubians as the most technologically advanced people of our galaxy, it is easy to notice from the book that "they merely make good use of what is already there in Nature, to their own ends"

Nature (in it's original state) has it's own laws and pereferences, they are to be sought, studied and accepted, this is a different case as in contrast to the case of "The Self" (number 1 explained above) most of the arguments related to Nature are not 100% pure spiritual subjects since a considerable part of the arguments are directly related to material knowledge. It is absolutely "wrong" to consider a personal spritual advice regarding situations that are out of the scope and range of the advice given

[bomohwkl]

Alisima wrote:
Robanan wrote:
Why should I drop my ideals?


Because they are very hard to accomplish, if not impossible. And even IF you succeed you will create 10 new. You will go round and round in an endless circle of desires and hopes. You have ideals because you are not content with the world, in order to drop them you should grow to become more content with everything. When you have become fully satisfied you will drop all of your ideals because the ideal state has already been achieved. It is to be noted though that the emphasis lies not on the dropping of your ideals, but on becoming content. The dropping of your ideals is something that follows quickly after full satisfaction. This in fact is something many people misunderstood about Buddha. Most people who follow Buddha have tried to achieve a desireless state, this is unachievable. It is the being contect which has to be achieved. After that the dropping of your ideals follows naturally.

What ideals you both really referring? What kind of content you are referring? Material content? Or spiritual content?

The Great Thora mentioned

If a businessman owns a large store he then wants a second, then a third. If he
commands a small empire, he wants to increase it. If an ordinary man owns a
house in which he could live happily with his family, he wants a larger one or to
own a second one, then a third..

I think we should learn to be materially content, rather than wanting more and more materially....

I don't think we can use the word content about our level of spirituality (developing the abilities of the MIND. Specifically, the ability to make CHOICES and learn from their consequences. Intelligence is the facility of the MIND that enables us to make CONCLUSIONS from our mistakes and modify our choices and motives-Tom). We just feel a sense of well-being and satisfication when we achieved certain level of understanding and a sense of true-knowing of your true potential when you are able to demostrated your spiritual progression through living it by choices made in your life. It is the JOY that derived from spiritual progression. The JOY of Material progression is a temporary only, when you abandon when you die.

[Alisima]

At the time that an advice was given resembling the one Alisima gave (see the above quotes), people used to live far simpler lives and were living in a far simpler world. The nature of the advice is spiritual, regarding the original untouched state of everything starting from the self, up to the environment and the universe.

Are you saying that such an advice won't work in this 'busy' world with our hectic lives we live?

Yeah, I guess you could say we have to make much more choices today then yesterday. But eventhough, it should not matter.

1. The Self:
The state of being content of your own self, has a direct relationship with what you accept about your self and what you don't accept about it. Tom says: Acceptance is a necessary condition for experiencing love. In this case, the need to make it possible to experience love toward your own self requires you to examine yourself and accept yourself as a whole. This includes accepting your "Intellect" and the way it works, accepting your "mind" and the way it works, accepting your "feelings" as you experience them etc. this also includes accepting the fact that "Your Intellect has an immense, unlimited potential to develop itself" the way it does. While you will also have to accept that "You also have the freedom of choice and you can use it to aim at experiencing the most wonderful feelings possible" you will have to explore and accept your autonomy, awareness, consciousness etc. as they are, without having to reject any single thing of your "original" self.
As you move forward into exploring your own self, and gather knowledge, you will find that in most cases you have a wrong impression about your self and that you really are a lovely integral entity of the whole universe, loved and able to love.

Yes, this is true. Although I like to point out that with experiencing the most wonderful feelings, due to correct use of your freedom of choice, also comes experiencing the most saddest feelings. That is the 'problem' with choosing. Whenever you choose 'good' you also chooce 'evil', they cannot exist without eachother. Try being happy 25 hours a day, it won't work. After lightness comes darkness, after plus comes minus. Inevitable.

It is absolutely "wrong" to consider a personal spritual advice regarding situations that are out of the scope and range of the advice given

You lost me here, please explain.

What ideals you both really referring?

Any ideal, really. Like: "Make love not war" or "Everyone should stop lying" or "A society with no polution" or just about anything regarding an utopia.

What kind of content you are referring? Material content? Or spiritual content?

With all. With everything you can imagine. Just think of something, and yes, that too.

[Robanan]

Are you saying that such an advice won't work in this 'busy' world with our hectic lives we live?

No, It may work if understood correctly. I'm saying that it was composed in a simpler environment, where people's minds were not filled with all kinds of flavoured information, at those times technology was not so disturbing also. It's an advice exclusively about spirituality.

Yes, this is true. Although I like to point out that with experiencing the most wonderful feelings, due to correct use of your freedom of choice, also comes experiencing the most saddest feelings. That is the 'problem' with choosing. Whenever you choose 'good' you also chooce 'evil', they cannot exist without eachother. Try being happy 25 hours a day, it won't work. After lightness comes darkness, after plus comes minus. Inevitable.

True, the same is with being "content" all the time. Since you may experience sadness after happiness, one may always experience a state of "discontentment" in contrast to the experience of a state of "contentment". After many researches and observations One just has either to accept or deny this truth.

It is absolutely "wrong" to consider a personal spritual advice regarding situations that are out of the scope and range of the advice given

The advice is a spiritual one regarding the knowledge of the self and it is for those who are researching the self.

This has nothing to do with cases such as global warming, and it doesn't mean that I have to be all the time "content" with the amount of toxins which that millionaire is selling to me under the name of a shampoo. Such material issues are out of the scope of this spiritual advice. See the above, I believe that people who formulated(reformulated?) this advice didn't have to cope with such grave material issues.

[Alisima]

True, the same is with being "content" all the time. Since you may experience sadness after happiness, one may always experience a state of "discontentment" in contrast to the experience of a state of "contentment". After many researches and observations One just has either to accept or deny this truth.

Ha, but here comes the great part. If you can 'see' these fluctuations of contentment and discontentment, and totally watch the emotions and feelings you have, you soon find out that you are neither content nor discontent, you are, rather, watching. Not watching as from your body, not as from your mind, but from your true self. As pure consciousness. Aware, awake and alife.

The advice is a spiritual one regarding the knowledge of the self and it is for those who are researching the self.

This has nothing to do with cases such as global warming, and it doesn't mean that I have to be all the time "content" with the amount of toxins which that millionaire is selling to me under the name of a shampoo. Such material issues are out of the scope of this spiritual advice. See the above, I believe that people who formulated(reformulated?) this advice didn't have to cope with such grave material issues.

It is tough to know how much one should spend on spirituality and on other thinks like moral and ethics, and ofcourse lets not forget intellect, etc.

I don't know this yet. Although I have a good clue.

[Vesko]

I don't think that just telling someone to become satisfied is good advice, because this is no advice at all. Even without following this advice, the most horrible criminal does everything they do in order to become satisfied. So what advice is this?

Let me make it clear, I said that we need to become content. Later on I even gave a definition of content, it was: "Satisfied or showing satisfaction with things as they are." So what I said was: "we need to become satisfied with things as they are." That is what said. Not that we should create a situation in which we feel ourselves satisfied, no, I said we need to become satisfied with THIS situation, whatever the situation may be.

But "things as they are" can refer not only to situations you create, it can refer also to your own existing shortcomings of character, in effect instructing you to do nothing about them.

Regarding whether enlightenment can be taught in schools -- of course it can be taught in schools, but it is only you that can choose to receive the knowledge and learn. With the difference between teaching and learning, only you can learn to become enlightened, nobody can bestow it upon you.

You say that we only need to find the launch button in order to achieve inner transformation. As I think I understand you and if so I agree with that, you are not doing the transformation, you only trigger natural processes and nature takes over to complete them. But you need to find a tremendous amount of triggers (launch buttons) and here is where teaching from others has its place.

Buddhism -- agreed, there are things that still hold a great deal of truth, as in all the major religions.
But I'm still worried about the too conscise wording, e.g. "Be a driftwood." A driftwood in the river of your own vices? Or in the river of Nature? I know it's the latter, but that's because I've read more and thought. But what is the newbie to Buddhism going to think? I like independent, self-sufficient sentences, and although this statement is not one of the really ambiguous ones, it's still not to my taste.

[Yothu]

Buddhism -- agreed, there are things that still hold a great deal of truth, as in all the major religions.
But I'm still worried about the too conscise wording, e.g. "Be a driftwood." A driftwood in the river of your own vices? Or in the river of Nature? I know it's the former, but that's because I've read more and thought. But what is the newbie to Buddhism going to think? I like independent, self-sufficient sentences, and although this statement is not one of the really ambiguous ones, it's still not to my taste.

There is an equivalent to the saying above from the gospel of Thomas:

42 Jesus said, "Be passersby."

1. The Self:
The state of being content of your own self, has a direct relationship with what you accept about your self and what you don't accept about it. Tom says: Acceptance is a necessary condition for experiencing love. In this case, the need to make it possible to experience love toward your own self requires you to examine yourself and accept yourself as a whole. This includes accepting your "Intellect" and the way it works, accepting your "mind" and the way it works, accepting your "feelings" as you experience them etc.

This is excellent piece of information! I'd say it is basically the same advice the sentence "we need to become content" could have been if it would have been elaborated further.

The Great Thora mentioned

Quote:

If a businessman owns a large store he then wants a second, then a third. If he
commands a small empire, he wants to increase it. If an ordinary man owns a
house in which he could live happily with his family, he wants a larger one or to
own a second one, then a third..


I think we should learn to be materially content, rather than wanting more and more materially...

Yes, I think there is much truth in that. Simply because - IMO - as you are materially satisfied and, let's say, content (a 'feeling' which is solely internal) you have enough time not to concentrate on gaining more and more of something but to focus on your spirits.

[Vesko]

Be content materially is still bad advice as far as I am concerned -- certain people, at a certain time in their evolution, need a lot more material things (tools) than others in order to develop effectively from their level of evolution upwards (note that doesn't clash with someone else at a different level of evolution developing equally effectively but with fewer material things). The Thaora avoided such all-inclusive statements, preferring instead just to illustrate typical errors, such as that one does not need 3 houses for a single family (2 spouses and young children). Yes, no family really needs 3 houses, but it is possible that it genuinely needs 3 computers, which can be deemed excessive and expensive by most people, who need only 1 computer.
I can see that Thiaooubans have no problem with wealth -- it is how you use this wealth that is important. When wealth is not used correctly or is downright impossible to be used correctly (such as having 3 houses for a single family), this is bad, but otherwise wealth is just a material tool that can be used or misused.