Evidence of Design in the Universe

[Vesko]

Most people who read TP think life has a meaning. Well, tell me then, what is it's meaning?? To develop spiritually?? Hmm.. ok. But WHY?? It is not that I am against development, but I see no reason WHY...

The meaning is to achieve final communion with God -- that's the ultimate goal, as the Bible teaches, and as the Thaori state. And preferably by the fastest path, too. Our life is a learning process so that we can achieve all the qualities of God in a minituarized state -- such as moral excellence and mastery over existence. All that is made very clear in Old and New Testaments, and Michel's book.

The only answer I can think of is that it makes me happy. But that is not really a purposeful meaning is it?? Just to live for the fun of living, just to be happy. Or is it??

I would say it is extracting the best possible joy of living out of one's existence -- but genuine fun that really makes you happy, not a temporary happiness (obtained by taking drugs or other means) that eventually leaves one in a worse state despite doing seemingly fun activities. Often obtaining a greater well-being requires one to endure hardships, but if they are the right hardships for you, and make sense from the Creator's point of view, one is eventually better off.

Due to change of definition I will ask my question again: "What is the purpose of life??" or "What is the need of an universe??" and "Why should there be a creator in the first place??" or "What does depend on us??", "Why should we be here??", "Why??", "Why??", ad infinitum...

The universe is a training ground to achieve communion with God, and serves a need for God to express himself.

Why should there be a creator? Because it seems everything around us, ourselves included, is extraordinarily designed by an incredible mind.

What depends on us -- without us, God would be alone and would not be enriched by the knowledge we gather in our training ground. Without us, God will be unhappy. As Jesus said in the Bible, "It is your Father's good pleasure to give you the Kingdom". We bring pleasure and happiness to God, just as children bring them to parents. And lovers to each other, too.

You must be mistakely talking about the ego, instead of the Self. Mind cannot know the Self.

Are you sure that if the Creator created both the mind and self, and we are part of the Creator, we cannot know self?

[Vesko]

When these guys talk about 'going with the flow' they mean to just go with the mob, and do whatever they do. If someone is passing around a bong then just 'go with the flow'. Don't think for yourself.

Yes. And as a piece of spam e-mail I receive regularly is titled, "Don't think. Just act."

I am thinking that when you say 'go with the flow' you are meaning to move with Nature / The Spirit / etc ?.. But as a saying it badly needs more refining as people should not behave like sheep and just do whatever everyone else is doing : drugs, polluting the planet, being materialistic etc.

Before we jump in the stream we have to ask ourself: where does the flow come from, and where does it lead.

All wise words, Zark. As I've previously wrote on the board, I am partly dissatisfied with Buddhist and some Buddhist-derived teachings, because they prominently feature such statements that are flawed IMHO, too. I am not sure if "Go with the flow" is a teaching of the original Buddhism, though, so don't quote me that I do not like Buddishm, please . But I like to discriminate (in the sense of discern, not the negative meaning) because I find it useful to see things other than in black and white or only a few shades of gray.

[Alisima]

The meaning is to achieve final communion with God -- that's the ultimate goal, as the Bible teaches, and as the Thaori state. And preferably by the fastest path, too. Our life is a learning process so that we can achieve all the qualities of God in a minituarized state -- such as moral excellence and mastery over existence. All that is made very clear in Old and New Testaments, and Michel's book.

Yes, I already know that the Bible and the Thaori preach that.

The universe is a training ground to achieve communion with God, and serves a need for God to express himself.

Why should there be a creator? Because it seems everything around us, ourselves included, is extraordinarily designed by an incredible mind.

What depends on us -- without us, God would be alone and would not be enriched by the knowledge we gather in our training ground. Without us, God will be unhappy. As Jesus said in the Bible, "It is your Father's good pleasure to give you the Kingdom". We bring pleasure and happiness to God, just as children bring them to parents. And lovers to each other, too.

You have not asked enough "why??". Try to imagine just right before the creator got into existence, back then when there was no universe, no us, there was only, like Tom calls it, the singular nothing. From that perspective, from nothing, from sheer emptiness, why did the creator came into existence?? There was no use for it, because there was nothing, and even nothing was not there. That is the question I am asking.

Are you sure that if the Creator created both the mind and self, and we are part of the Creator, we cannot know self?

I said, mind cannot know the self. I never said we cannot know the self. We are the self. It is, however, because we have become identified with mind that we have lost our self.

[Robanan]

We can understand the meaning of things that make sense to us. Life wouldn't make sense if we disclose ourselves from it's concept, it's simply ridiculous to examine life without considering it's manifestation through numerous life forms.

So we are "life" no matter what we think about it. We live and experience living in different circumstances, the universe simply provides a chance (a possibility) and the necessary conditions for the appearance and manifestation of life through different means.

If this makes sense to you, then you probably won't have any difficulty in understanding why I think that "We" are the meaning of life since to me life simply means experiencing certain things.

Yes, either we, god, love, happiness, awareness, conscious or bliss. Essentially they all mean the same. But certainly you must agree with me that this is not an answer to my question. My point is that the question cannot be answered.

I understand that you are referring to "The endless why..." as of a phenomena related to the mind. I don't have doubts that this phenomena has been observed by many people because it has been commented and referred to for a long time. If you want to say that the mind is crazy, I agree with you.

Well, not crazy. It can't help it. It is it's normal behavior. But you get what I mean.

The mind turns crazy for the person who stops educating it. As an example People with and uneducated mind find it very difficult to experience love; as feelings and rationality clash together and drift apart.

How untrue!! That must mean that today, were people are more educated then 1000 years ago, are more loving?? Love needs an educated mind?? That is just silly...

The mind needs a point of reference, this is why it's so important to know and understand the self as a whole.

You must be mistakely talking about the ego, instead of the Self. Mind cannot know the Self. That is why there is so much importance laid on the state of no-mind, a.k.a., meditation.

You can deny my answers to your questions, as you can deny answers to the questions that your own mind puts forth. The point is that your mind won't leave you alone, if your lifestyle does not embrace opportunities for educating your mind in a fruitful manner, then you might very well experience a mental breakdown that would leave your mind free to educate itself as it whishes, based on whatever motivates it to feel happy the next moment.

Love doesn't need an educated mind. Love is a feeling which is overwhelmingly motivational. It is the person who needs to understand love so as to embrace it and allow the mind to educate itself accordingly in order for the person to learn to be loving. So, only those who learn to harness the motivational force of love may finally learn to become loving. Experiencing love is a valuable experience for those who strive for knowing the self. What your mind does is that it just gives you a rational result of all these processes. Therefore creating the necessary foundation of values that would allow you to further develop spiritually.

Mind cannot know the self? The rational evaluation of your self happens in your mind, so all that you understand about yourself counts. Beware of damaging your mind with misunderstandings and cluttering motivations.

[Robanan]

You have not asked enough "why??". Try to imagine just right before the creator got into existence, back then when there was no universe, no us, there was only, like Tom calls it, the singular nothing. From that perspective, from nothing, from sheer emptiness, why did the creator came into existence?? There was no use for it, because there was nothing, and even nothing was not there. That is the question I am asking.

So it all came down from the "infinite why..." to the "ultimate why.."? Please Alisima don't let your mind play it's unfair game with the rest of the world. We dont' even know what exactly we are talking about when we are saying that the creator came to existence from "nothing" or "sheer emptiness" the fact that the mind is troubled by these questions means that our understanding of this concepts is simply not complete. Maybe, just maybe the creator came into existence to experience whatever primordial existence could be experienced at the time.

I said, mind cannot know the self. I never said we cannot know the self. We are the self. It is, however, because we have become identified with mind that we have lost our self.

If you lose your self you will completely disentegrate back into whatever was the "nothing" that you asked about in your quote above. What you say shows you are completely misunderstood about your own mind.

[Zark]

You can twist everything I say into bad things. Let me remind you that this twisting is done by you, not by the saying, nor by me. Anyway, you are right, I indeed meant the flowing with nature, spirit or god, whatever you want to call it.

I didn't twist your words. I made it quite clear in my post that I felt what you meant and what others meant by saying 'go with the flow' are two different things. My whole point is that the saying is bad because of what it means to the average person - how then can you say that I twisted the words of the saying. People do use the saying as an excuse to act like mindless sheep and just do what everyone else is doing... and that is very harmful.

I do think that living in harmony with nature is exactly like most hiphop artists say: "go with the flow". (Although they may not fully be aware of the beauty of there expression.)

Do you really think these guys are thinking 'go with the flow of Nature' or 'go with the flow of God'??. I certainly don't think so.. rather 'go with the flow of the mob' or 'go with the flow of your desires'. And that can mean the opposite of going with Nature, or The Spirit - that is: drugs, violence, etc.

If a saying promotes harmful behaviour then it deserves to be criticised.

[Zark]

You cannot change yourself.

I change every single day. And I don't just mean my clothes.. But do I change myself, or does life and experience change me? The cogs are turning in my brain Alisima heehee

[Robanan]

I change every single day. And I don't just mean my clothes.. But do I change myself, or does life and experience change me? The cogs are turning in my brain Alisima heehee

Oho Zark, WOW you must be a fast learner!

[Zark]

Oho Zark, WOW you must be a fast learner!

hehe no I don't think so . Actually I think it is something of a paradox -- we constantly change, and yet we are always the same entity.

from : http://www.shambhalasun.com/tnh.htm
When we bathe in the river today that we bathed in yesterday, is it the same river? Heraclitus said that we couldn't step into the same river twice. He was right. The water in the river today is completely different from the water we bathed in yesterday. Yet it is the same river.

[Robanan]

I completely agree Zark, I remember from Osho's teachings that we should look at the world with new eyes everyday, since everything in nature changes all the time, the trees and the flowers grow and develop new cells all the time, but the tree remains the same tree and the flower remains the same flower.

[Yothu]

I change every single day. And I don't just mean my clothes..

This is the best sentence on this whole page !!! Bravo

[Vesko]

You have not asked enough "why??". Try to imagine just right before the creator got into existence, back then when there was no universe, no us, there was only, like Tom calls it, the singular nothing. From that perspective, from nothing, from sheer emptiness, why did the creator came into existence?? There was no use for it, because there was nothing, and even nothing was not there. That is the question I am asking.

You are right, there are more why's. There's another one: what if there was never just nothing, and always a creator? Then you'd also ask why, and you are right to do so. But you know, questions and answer have a certain order to be asked and answered when one is learning. Perhaps it is irrelevant for us to be able to know right now the answer to this one and the one you asked? Perhaps not. I am not trying to evade your question. I have absolutely no idea how to answer it. I also think we have other problems to solve because we are here and now living on Earth, in this universe, and the answer to this particular question does not really matter to us right now, does it? What do you think? Or perhaps it does? You tell me -- how will knowing the answer to this question help you right now? My answer is it won't. Perhaps you are more insightful and you will know better...

Something else, what is it you think we misunderstand when we disagree with the statement "You cannot change yourself"?

[Alisima]

So it all came down from the "infinite why..." to the "ultimate why.."? Please Alisima don't let your mind play it's unfair game with the rest of the world.

The reason I posted these questions was to illustrate that the mind does not have an answer. Therefor, because of not having an answer, life must be meaningless. However, I have been engaged in various activities in life with which I got a deep satisfaction and a deep feeling of meaning. And this troubled me. Because, is it meaningless or meaningfull?? According to my mind it must be meaningless since I can't find any meaning. But on the other hand when I play a gig, I am a musician, or when I compose music or play with my 4-year-old nephew I feel meaning. So I concluded both must be right. It just depends, and that is with most things, on how you look.

If you lose your self you will completely disentegrate back into whatever was the "nothing" that you asked about in your quote above. What you say shows you are completely misunderstood about your own mind.

I am sorry, I meant lost as in able to regain. As with lost memories, they are still there but you can't see them. They have to be rediscovered. This is the same when I say that the self is lost because we have identified ourselves with our minds. I don't mean it is lost as in completely lost, but lost as in unaware of its existence. I am sorry, I should have explained that better.

I didn't twist your words. I made it quite clear in my post that I felt what you meant and what others meant by saying 'go with the flow' are two different things. My whole point is that the saying is bad because of what it means to the average person - how then can you say that I twisted the words of the saying.

No correct you never twisted my words. But the people who will misinterpreted my saying of 'go with the flow' will have twisted my words. Well, rather twisted its meaning. I am aware that saying much in very little words can create misinterpretations easily. But then again I am not in favor of typing a whole book to explain something as easy as 'go with the flow'. You either understand, you don't understand, or you think you understand.

People do use the saying as an excuse to act like mindless sheep and just do what everyone else is doing... and that is very harmful.

Yes, we probably all have behaved like sheep somewhere in our lives, or former lives. It is not bad, growth just takes a little longer. Afterward, we all laugh about it.

I change every single day. And I don't just mean my clothes.. But do I change myself, or does life and experience change me? The cogs are turning in my brain Alisima heehee

I think you answered your own question in a later response.

hehe no I don't think so . Actually I think it is something of a paradox -- we constantly change, and yet we are always the same entity.

It is true. Go back your whole life and you see that it is always the same you. And yet again, you have changed. You body is different, you have different thoughts, you have changed.

You are right, there are more why's. There's another one: what if there was never just nothing, and always a creator? Then you'd also ask why, and you are right to do so. But you know, questions and answer have a certain order to be asked and answered when one is learning. Perhaps it is irrelevant for us to be able to know right now the answer to this one and the one you asked? Perhaps not. I am not trying to evade your question. I have absolutely no idea how to answer it. I also think we have other problems to solve because we are here and now living on Earth, in this universe, and the answer to this particular question does not really matter to us right now, does it? What do you think? Or perhaps it does? You tell me -- how will knowing the answer to this question help you right now? My answer is it won't. Perhaps you are more insightful and you will know better...

I think the question cannot be answered. Certainly not in a way which it can be discussed and taught. Once you have become enlightened you probably know the answer, but then you can't tell anyone else cause no one would understand.

Something else, what is it you think we misunderstand when we disagree with the statement "You cannot change yourself"?

Probably because we all have different concepts of our self. If you were to say that your brains are your self, then ofcourse you can change your self. But you must agree with me that it is hard to explain, through words, what the self is. Or what I think the self is. I think the self is that which never changes. Try to find it, it is inside you. It is something you have know all along, something which was already there before your father was born, and it will remain long after you die. Call it spirit, soul, atman, self or whatever. You can feel it only if you are very quiet.

[Robanan]

Dear Alisima,
I think it would have ridiculous if the mind already had the answer to everything. This in turn gives me a hint about the importance of spiritual experiences, anyway...

The mind is important because it has some very "necessary" abilities:

1- It can formulate questions.
2- It can formulate answers.
3- It can create proof.

(technically speaking) It can create knowledge out of data and Information. Therefore I even consider it natural that the mind does not have the answer to all of the questions. This in no way means that life is meaningless or meaningful. It doesn't matter, meaning arises in the mind and it's based on it's input, so what matters is what you understand about life as you learn to appreciate yourself as a whole. For example: When you get involved with something that gives you a deep feeling of meaning, you can use your mind to study this feeling and understand it, and yes the feeling will disappear the same goes with negative (disgusting) feelings, you will just have to deepen the experience next time and involve yourself with more and deeper experiences. Oh yes, don't worry you won't run out of opportunities, there always will be higher levels of existence where you would be able to uncover and experience the unthinkable and unspeakable.

Let's keep rowing...

[Alisima]

Dear Alisima,
I think it would have ridiculous if the mind already had the answer to everything.

Yeah that is true, but remember I said it will never know, not now, not tomorrow.

The mind is important because it has some very "necessary" abilities:

1- It can formulate questions.
2- It can formulate answers.

Have you observed that in almost any science every answered question results in 10 more questions?? Ofcourse mind can answer questions, but in doing so it will create more questions exponentially. It is not the answer the mind wants. The mind wants to question. That is an intrinsic quality of the mind, to question. For surviving it is good. For making a career it is good. But for other things it is not so good.

3- It can create proof.

Yes it can, mathematical proof, locigal proof, proof through reason, 1 plus 1 equals 2. It is very good at that. But real proof?? To proof god, or to proof love, or bliss, or soul?? No. What if all this is a dream?? Can you proof it??

For example: When you get involved with something that gives you a deep feeling of meaning, you can use your mind to study this feeling and understand it, and yes the feeling will disappear the same goes with negative (disgusting) feelings, you will just have to deepen the experience next time and involve yourself with more and deeper experiences.

What you describe sounds much like an adiction. I have known it myself, first you start with 10 beers on a saterdaynight, next year 20 beers, next year 30 beers, and after that you can't even get drunk. Then something stronger is needed, which ofcourse will work less and less the more time you use it.
I am not interrested with that which comes and goes. I am interrested with that which always stay unchanged.

Let's keep rowing...

Yiehoo!