Evidence of Design in the Universe

[Alisima]

But "things as they are" can refer not only to situations you create, it can refer also to your own existing shortcomings of character, in effect instructing you to do nothing about them.

Nono, not "do nothing about them". But be satisfied with it. There is a big difference in that.

Buddhism -- agreed, there are things that still hold a great deal of truth, as in all the major religions.
But I'm still worried about the too conscise wording, e.g. "Be a driftwood." A driftwood in the river of your own vices? Or in the river of Nature? I know it's the latter, but that's because I've read more and thought. But what is the newbie to Buddhism going to think? I like independent, self-sufficient sentences, and although this statement is not one of the really ambiguous ones, it's still not to my taste.

The "be a driftwood" saying is about the behavior of the driftwood. As you know driftwood floats on water. If the water, due to a wave, were to go up the driftwood simply goes along with in. It does not fight the movement of the water, or chooses his own path, it simply follows whatever the water is doing. That is what the saying suggests, that we in live, whatever happens, simply have to follow. Ofcourse there is a wrong to follow and a good way, but that is beyond the scope of the saying.

[Robanan]

If you can 'see' these fluctuations of contentment and discontentment, and totally watch the emotions and feelings you have, you soon find out that you are neither content nor discontent, you are, rather, watching. Not watching as from your body, not as from your mind, but from your true self. As pure consciousness. Aware, awake and alife

This is something I confronted when I was researching my own awareness last year. We become aware of feelings, thoughts, ideas and different conscious states as our awareness encounters the contrasts between them and percieves them.

...We can create a human body, but that is done only by the great Thaori, taking infinite care, for the human body must be inhabited by several bodies, as you are aware - the physiological, the astral etc. If not, it would merely be a robot. ..."

-quote from the book

We are not "merely robots" in our nature and creation, at a most primitive state of our creation we must have been "built-up" from a base design (or it's just the thaori who do it like that). Anyway, our true self is not just pure consciousness, our true self is not just aware, awake and alive(alife?) "it's what we are as a whole that is our true self".

The "be a driftwood" saying is about the behavior of the driftwood...That is what the saying suggests, that we in live, whatever happens, simply have to follow. Ofcourse there is a wrong to follow and a good way, but that is beyond the scope of the saying.

Living in harmony with nature doesn't have anything in common with "following, whatever happens"

I say "Shoot me with my own gun" sometimes when I want to say "Act in harmony with my own actions"

[Robanan]

Be content materially is still bad advice...

I have the same thoughts, "be content spiritually" is more enlightening even though it can also be misunderstood. In any case I also think it is a good practice to elaborate an adapted explanation based on examples and real world situations, instead of using all-inclusive statements such as these.

Being content either materially or spiritually is based on and limited by our own understanding of the universe and what we percieve and understand as our role in it.

[Vesko]

Robanan: agreed.

[Robanan]

[Vesko]

[Alisima]

Living in harmony with nature doesn't have anything in common with "following, whatever happens"

Sorry for the late reply.

Anyway, I can't agree with you. I do think that living in harmony with nature is exactly like most hiphop artists say: "go with the flow". (Although they may not fully be aware of the beauty of there expression.)

Why?? Because the flow is going to flow anyway, whether you agree or not. If you agree you'll be relaxed, non-tense and aware. If you don't agree, you'll be fighting a lost fight. You can't swim upstream you know.

[Robanan]

living in harmony with nature is exactly like most hiphop artists say: "go with the flow".

They are not only unaware of what they are saying, but also help people to give up their integrity by promoting thoughtlessness.

Why?? Because the flow is going to flow anyway, whether you agree or not. If you agree you'll be relaxed, non-tense and aware. If you don't agree, you'll be fighting a lost fight. You can't swim upstream you know.

Destiny flows for all of us and takes us along with it's flow. the trick is to "learn to swim" along in harmony with your destiny. If you won't "learn to swim" along, you might rather die, hitting the rocks and suffocating in pain and agony. I hope you don't think that life is meaningless. Some even learn how to enjoy themselves by surfing the "waves".

[Alisima]

They are not only unaware of what they are saying, but also help people to give up their integrity by promoting thoughtlessness.

We are not debating hiphop artists, sorry for bringing them up.

Destiny flows for all of us and takes us along with it's flow. the trick is to "learn to swim" along in harmony with your destiny. If you won't "learn to swim" along, you might rather die, hitting the rocks and suffocating in pain and agony. I hope you don't think that life is meaningless.

All life is meaningless AND meaningfull, they both mean the same. Which brings me back to the original idea behind this topic, to discuss the evidence of design in the universe. Well, there is no evidence, and yet all is evidence. It just depends on how you look. Same with life and its meaning, if you are negative, life is meaningless, if you are positive, life is meaningfull. But it does not matter. Go to a depressive person and say life is meaningfull, he will laugh at you. Go to a so-called saint and say life is meaningless, he will also laugh at you. But who is right?? Tell me, who is right??

Most people who read TP think life has a meaning. Well, tell me then, what is it's meaning?? To develop spiritually?? Hmm.. ok. But WHY?? It is not that I am against development, but I see no reason WHY...

The only answer I can think of is that it makes me happy. But that is not really a purposeful meaning is it?? Just to live for the fun of living, just to be happy. Or is it??

[Robanan]

Most people who read TP think life has a meaning. Well, tell me then, what is it's meaning??

You don't want to think about it? The answer is simple and it's not a secret. I don't want to spoil the fun for you, and you don't have to necessarily read TP to find the answer if you really mean to.

Anyway,

It just depends on how you look...

Indeed, When you step out, you see different subjective judgements made by different people.

Go to a depressive person and say life is meaningfull, he will laugh at you. Go to a so-called saint and say life is meaningless, he will also laugh at you. But who is right?? Tell me, who is right??

The wonder comes when you take another step further away and out of the contemporary "flow" of things. By then it becomes easy to notice life as a whole and you will see that, no matter what the saint or the pessimist think about life, they create the waves and flow with them as they continue living. We all do the same thing.

Then if you go back to them (to the pessimist and to the saint) and ask them why they keep on living? The pessimist won't even know what you are talking about, while at the same time the saint will have a lot of things to say. It's not that the saint will tell you what is the meaning of life. But it would be easy to notice that the saint ha learned to "swim" along with the waves of his destiny, and that the saint would happily tell you about it.

To develop spiritually?? Hmm.. ok. But WHY?? It is not that I am against development, but I see no reason WHY...

The only answer I can think of is that it makes me happy. But that is not really a purposeful meaning is it?? Just to live for the fun of living, just to be happy. Or is it??

To some people, life means playing music, they simply can't do without it. To others life has another meaning. Maybe while we are in astral form in the company of our HS ready to reincarnate, life really means a good chance to develop spiritually since we become so eager to reincarnate and live it through?

[trumpet_is_cool]

Most people who read TP think life has a meaning. Well, tell me then, what is it's meaning?? To develop spiritually?? Hmm.. ok. But WHY?? It is not that I am against development, but I see no reason WHY...

The only answer I can think of is that it makes me happy. But that is not really a purposeful meaning is it?? Just to live for the fun of living, just to be happy. Or is it??

Hmmm....I think it is a fundamental desire that humans always wan`t to "get better"or"to make progress"..The real Question is: Why do we have the desire to make progress ? If we didn`t had this desire we wouldn`t even try to learn how to breath / walk or speak. Later we can choose wich way we go and spiritually seems to be the most logical/natural and pleasant way for me.

Maybe the answer to the question is behind the "horizon", fact is that something leads in this direction (to make progress...)

[Zark]

I do think that living in harmony with nature is exactly like most hiphop artists say: "go with the flow". (Although they may not fully be aware of the beauty of there expression.)

When these guys talk about 'going with the flow' they mean to just go with the mob, and do whatever they do. If someone is passing around a bong then just 'go with the flow'. Don't think for yourself..

Why?? Because the flow is going to flow anyway, whether you agree or not. If you agree you'll be relaxed, non-tense and aware. If you don't agree, you'll be fighting a lost fight. You can't swim upstream you know.

Consider when a drug addict gives up heroin - they need a strong will and must suffer a great deal in the process. Changing ones self often takes discipline and sacrifice... and can even bring pain. Should a drug addict just go with the flow?

Should we just go with the flow of the mob.. do a bit of witch burning when it becomes popular? It is easier to go with the flow in such situations, rather than to do what is right and stand up against the injustice of a lynch mob. And it is because it is easier that it seems so much more desirable.

I am thinking that when you say 'go with the flow' you are meaning to move with Nature / The Spirit / etc ?.. But as a saying it badly needs more refining as people should not behave like sheep and just do whatever everyone else is doing : drugs, polluting the planet, being materialistic etc.

Before we jump in the stream we have to ask ourself: where does the flow come from, and where does it lead..

[Alisima]

You don't want to think about it? The answer is simple and it's not a secret. I don't want to spoil the fun for you, and you don't have to necessarily read TP to find the answer if you really mean to.

I was not asking because I did not know. I was asking for an answer, not from myself, but from you, or anyone else interested.

To some people, life means playing music, they simply can't do without it. To others life has another meaning. Maybe while we are in astral form in the company of our HS ready to reincarnate, life really means a good chance to develop spiritually since we become so eager to reincarnate and live it through?

Before we continue I must elaborate on something to avoid misconceptions. When I say life, I mean the all-inclusive life. Not just the moment between birth and death, but all life, before, between and after. I am sorry for not explaining that earlier.

Due to change of definition I will ask my question again: "What is the purpose of life??" or "What is the need of an universe??" and "Why should there be a creator in the first place??" or "What does depend on us??", "Why should we be here??", "Why??", "Why??", ad infinitum...

That is what I am asking. The endless why...

Consider when a drug addict gives up heroin - they need a strong will and must suffer a great deal in the process. Changing ones self often takes discipline and sacrifice... and can even bring pain. Should a drug addict just go with the flow?

You cannot change yourself. And to answer your question, yes. But in most cases the drug addict does not know what the flow is. Anyway, we are not discussing drug addicts here, we are discussing you and me. Are you a drug addict?? Why talk about it??

I am thinking that when you say 'go with the flow' you are meaning to move with Nature / The Spirit / etc ?.. But as a saying it badly needs more refining as people should not behave like sheep and just do whatever everyone else is doing : drugs, polluting the planet, being materialistic etc.

People behaving like sheeps need more than a well formulated saying to change there ways. However, it was not intended for them. It was intended for the people here on this forum.

You can twist everything I say into bad things. Let me remind you that this twisting is done by you, not by the saying, nor by me. Anyway, you are right, I indeed meant the flowing with nature, spirit or god, whatever you want to call it.

[Robanan]

Most people who read TP think life has a meaning. Well, tell me then, what is it's meaning??

We can understand the meaning of things that make sense to us. Life wouldn't make sense if we disclose ourselves from it's concept, it's simply ridiculous to examine life without considering it's manifestation through numerous life forms.

So we are "life" no matter what we think about it. We live and experience living in different circumstances, the universe simply provides a chance (a possibility) and the necessary conditions for the appearance and manifestation of life through different means.

If this makes sense to you, then you probably won't have any difficulty in understanding why I think that "We" are the meaning of life since to me life simply means experiencing certain things.

If someone finds out that nature points us toward spiritual development, when the person would find it very satisfying to understand that indeed, he/she already has all the means to develop spiritually and finds that experiencing spiritual development really has a meaning and a manifestation in life; the person may be simply persuaded (by himself) that life means spiritual development.

"What is the purpose of life??" or "What is the need of an universe??" and "Why should there be a creator in the first place??" or "What does depend on us??", "Why should we be here??", "Why??", "Why??", ad infinitum...

That is what I am asking. The endless why...

I understand that you are referring to "The endless why..." as of a phenomena related to the mind. I don't have doubts that this phenomena has been observed by many people because it has been commented and referred to for a long time. If you want to say that the mind is crazy, I agree with you. The mind turns crazy for the person who stops educating it. As an example People with and uneducated mind find it very difficult to experience love; as feelings and rationality clash together and drift apart.

The mind needs a point of reference, this is why it's so important to know and understand the self as a whole. It's when you set your own self as a point of reference for your mind that you enable yourself to truly understand the sorrounding universe.

[Alisima]

We can understand the meaning of things that make sense to us. Life wouldn't make sense if we disclose ourselves from it's concept, it's simply ridiculous to examine life without considering it's manifestation through numerous life forms.

So we are "life" no matter what we think about it. We live and experience living in different circumstances, the universe simply provides a chance (a possibility) and the necessary conditions for the appearance and manifestation of life through different means.

If this makes sense to you, then you probably won't have any difficulty in understanding why I think that "We" are the meaning of life since to me life simply means experiencing certain things.

Yes, either we, god, love, happiness, awareness, conscious or bliss. Essentially they all mean the same. But certainly you must agree with me that this is not an answer to my question. My point is that the question cannot be answered.

I understand that you are referring to "The endless why..." as of a phenomena related to the mind. I don't have doubts that this phenomena has been observed by many people because it has been commented and referred to for a long time. If you want to say that the mind is crazy, I agree with you.

Well, not crazy. It can't help it. It is it's normal behavior. But you get what I mean.

The mind turns crazy for the person who stops educating it. As an example People with and uneducated mind find it very difficult to experience love; as feelings and rationality clash together and drift apart.

How untrue!! That must mean that today, were people are more educated then 1000 years ago, are more loving?? Love needs an educated mind?? That is just silly...

The mind needs a point of reference, this is why it's so important to know and understand the self as a whole.

You must be mistakely talking about the ego, instead of the Self. Mind cannot know the Self. That is why there is so much importance laid on the state of no-mind, a.k.a., meditation.