Questioning The Book

[Rezo]

I wonder how it is "graded", is it just from improvement, or also accuracy.

Say for example, grade 35% improvement up to 65% does that get me to 4th grade? No I still have to pass the test. But maybe it works this way, since our school system is by its very nature kind of corrupt and motivated for profit and politics. Who knows??

Id like to think I can get to 9 at some point in the future. I feel that I am moving closer to my goals in this lifetime, realizing and improving myself in certain ways, rather than moving further. Sometimes I just dont know how well Im doing....sometimes theres just too many distractions and meditation is *impossible* for long stretches of time, [weeks, months]. Another topic there.

[Alisima]

Because I understand that anger, etc. is bad, those thoughts do not occur in me, or if they occur, I do not feed them and they naturally die. This is control, and there is no suppression.

The point I was trying to make is that you are still busy with the good/bad duality. And while for social convenience it is sometimes best to continue this practise, otherwise one might be seen as an immoralist and might be hanged, one must at all times understand that this is only part of the social charade, and at times when one is alone, it is best to abandon such practices. Placing the label 'good' or 'bad' onto a thought IS the problem, not your supressing or controlling of it. Simply because the possibility of supressing/controlling thoughts will go away once the thought has lost it's feeding ground, it's roots.

But what I am talking about has nothing to do with controlling thought, but with transcending thought. And while controlling thoughts has it's uses, it is the transcendence of thought which brings real merit. The problem occurs when one tries to achieve the transcendence of thoughts with the controlling of thoughts. Many have tried this in their meditations, forcefully suppressing thoughts, and even have succeded in supressing them, but have gained little else.

If I were to control a group of people, as a King for instance, I could create the idea of Morality and say to those who do what I want, "you are doing good" and to those who do what I dislike, "you are doing bad". The latter will feel guilty, to the extend they bought the lie, and most of them will try to belong to the former.

Please explain how the above paragraph relates to this discussion.

It relates to the division created with every duality, your good and bad thoughts for instance.

Now please explain me HOW do you control your thought, without suppressing another thought?? You say, "there are people who think that control equals suppression and lack of freedom", in what way isn't that true?? Like I said, in control you praise one thing and disdain the other.

I examine all thoughts equally well before understanding which thoughts are good and which are bad. Then, I encourage the thoughts that I understand to be good and beneficial to me, and in the process the bad thoughts lose power and disappear by themselves. I control myself not to fall into the trap of following a thought that I understand / know is surely bad. If I fall into this trap, I again control myself to stop thinking this thought and replace it with a more positive one.

But how do you know which ones are bad, and which ones are good? To me it seems you praise the thought which says another thought is good, and dislike the thought which says another thought is bad. Please understand that the basis of your conclusions regarding the thoughts you have is based on thoughts you haven't even paid attention to, and which you can't since you can't think about thinking (you can think about what you have thought, in the past that is, but never about the thinking which thinks NOW.) What if the "this is a bad thought" is a bad thought? You are dismissing certain thoughts, and you all base that on other thoughts. In other words, you are playing a thought game. One thought kills another, and another thought kill yet another. It is all merely hot air.

So you are of the opinion that all yogis / monks / hermits practicing seclusion all their life are not living and your advice to them is effectively "get a life"? Can you elaborate more?

All I can say is this: the whole world is divine, why hide in a cave??

[shezmear]

the whole world is divine...

come on....

[Robanan]

Alisima you would have done better if you tried understanding what Vesko's saying, instead of comparing his words with a well known doctorine.

Seeing pain and suffering as something devine can only bring more pain and suffering, as man's spirit craves naturally for and toward divinity.

What makes you feel bad is bad? not always! sometimes people see things from a wrong perspective and that makes them feel bad, in this case the perspective should be changed. Vesko's success in being able to see most of the available perspectives of what he observes in his life is applausible to say the least.

How to know that your perspective might be wrong?
You'll feel bad, you won't like the feeling, or the feeling will make you feel sorry. Then you have to frame out what exactly is making you feel so, then change it. Just take that thing that makes you feel bad and sorry, and just change it. From there you'll see everything yourself and remember you can always make something better of it if you use your intellect. So play with it, and do experiment.

Anger, for example: You can always change it into, death, blood, tears, and broken windows and furniture. What else can you change anger into? a poem? a drawing, a scream, music, the list goes on... what do you choose?

[Aisin]

Robanan, very well-said on the perception topic. I've also come to learn that analysing our own perception and then refining it can help us a great deal in loving better.

[Alisima]

Seeing pain and suffering as something devine can only bring more pain and suffering, as man's spirit craves naturally for and toward divinity.

I never said anything about seeing pain and/or suffering as something divine. But while we are at it, ofcouse! Without suffering there would not be a single crave for divinity. Think deep and hard about all those who have gone in search for divinity, hadn't they all suffered?? Isn't then suffering not the principle cause of the search for divinity?? Well, in that case suffering is something divine, for it draws us closer. But, ofcourse, one can easily misinterpret this, and shoot of too far, way too close to the masochist -- that is indeed an misinterpretation.

What makes you feel bad is bad? not always! sometimes people see things from a wrong perspective and that makes them feel bad, in this case the perspective should be changed. Vesko's success in being able to see most of the available perspectives of what he observes in his life is applausible to say the least.

How to know that your perspective might be wrong?
You'll feel bad, you won't like the feeling, or the feeling will make you feel sorry. Then you have to frame out what exactly is making you feel so, then change it. Just take that thing that makes you feel bad and sorry, and just change it. From there you'll see everything yourself and remember you can always make something better of it if you use your intellect. So play with it, and do experiment.

Anger, for example: You can always change it into, death, blood, tears, and broken windows and furniture. What else can you change anger into? a poem? a drawing, a scream, music, the list goes on... what do you choose?

Connecting anger with death, blood, tears, etc. is perhapse a step ahead too much. Death, blood and tears can indeed be consequences of anger, but they themselves have nothing to do with anger, at least not with they way it arises. I would say one has to cut the tree at it roots, instead of stripping it leaf-by-leaf. I believe there is a general principle by which anger arises and investigation into that would be more fruitful than investigation, or redirecting, it's symptoms. Although at the time of arising, at the time when one indeed gets blood red, it is ofcourse best to seek an alternative outlet, for one is probably 'too hot too handle', but, afterwards, and thus before another possible frenzy, it is, in my oppinion, best to investigate into the principle cause, and thus to constantly pay attention, of the cause of the arising of anger. Ofcourse, any individual incapable of such attention, to which sadly most of the earth's inhabitants belong, has no merit to this and would be better off trying to find alternative outlets, and too all them, your suggested outlets like poetics, painting, music, etc., might indeed be correct. But, I was hoping you all to have enough self-consciousness to be able to 'stand above' this all, instead of lagging behind the facts. It is time to see into the cause of all phenomena, as opposed to constantly cleaning up their mess. Or am I too idealistic in this and, much like with you connection of anger to death, blood, tears, etc., a step ahead too much? I believe not, for I think we are already capable enough of redirecting ones anger, at least some of us, and therefor it is time now to dive deeper, to do what Freud said was impossible: to make the unconscious conscious.

But, if I recall correctly, we weren't talking about that, or at least Vesko and I weren't. Our discussion went about the controlling of thought and what possible dangers might be in there. Ofcourse, I don't think feelings and thought are that much apart, they are at least both greatly in the shadow, in the dark. For, and I have brought this idea up before, do you think about what you are going to think?? And consequently, who thinks about that?? Ofcourse, there must be a cause for thought, but I don't recall ever making the decision about what to think next, for that decision is already a thought. In the 70's or 80's, I don't recall correctly, there have been much experiments regarding actions and decisions, and the result was that the brain fires it's neurons 1,5 second BEFORE you move you arm. I believe the experiment was that a question was asked and that the subject was to push either the 'yes' or the 'no' button. If this is the case with thinking and feeling too, that their arisings have been decided 1,5 second before they actually manifest, are we ever going to control them?? Or, what I suggested, are we ever able to investigate properly?? Well, the immediate antithesis is ofcourse that the subjects were all-too-human, too poorly, too 'in the dark', too much unconscious to make claims upon for all others. In other words, what if we can train ourselves to be aware of the aforementioned decisions (those that manifested 1,5 second before an action), and thus be more aware of the cause of all that we do?? Again I return to the thing Freud considered impossible. But if that is truly impossible, to become conscious of the unconscious, then we are robbed of our free will, for it is only roughly 5% of our totality that is conscious in average man, and we are forever lagging behind the fact, being mere puppets in this intergalectic show.

The point I am trying to make is that we are all too much unconscious of either thought or feeling that we cannot make proper decisions about them for we lack important data. The first thing is to become conscious to at least 50% and then see how the big picture looks. This idea itself is sufficient enough to preceive anger at little bit MORE objective, a little bit more deattached, and thus a little bit less resulting in violence.

[Robanan]

Isn't then suffering not the principle cause of the search for divinity??

No, Suffering is not the principle cause of the search for divinity.

Well, in that case suffering is something divine, for it draws us closer.

Do I need to point to you where do people get through suffering? Drugs, Suicide, Homicide, Masochism, Sadism, Rape, Gluttony... just to name a few. Those who put some intellect into their way of life, eventually come to understand that most of what they themselves do brings them the agony they experience in their life. Such people might try to put more intelligence into their life and turn the whole thing into a divine experience for themselves.

Connecting anger with death, blood, tears, etc. is perhapse a step ahead too much.

You say that as if you have never experienced anger yourself. Anyway, I was saying that one can simply switch to a different thing and release the force of anger, either using this force to give motion to something or just releasing it as boiling water evaporates.

These quotes from you Alisima, are the reason why I brought up the suffering topic.

P.S. To answer the rest of your post Alisima... IMHO I think that you are repeating what Vesko's saying and just (as I said before) refabricating the whole message through a well known doctorine. One doesn't have time to think and reflect upon thoughts while experiencing anger. One can not prepare in advance and say that has overcome anger once and for all. This is because one can't say and can't predict, when and under which circumstances, is going to become angry next time. Life is full of surprises, being ready to get angry and react properly works always better (as Vesko's example shows), than any other method I know of. Experience is priceless... and The only way to be conscious while angry is to become angry consiously.

I've also come to learn that analysing our own perception and then refining it can help us a great deal in loving better.

From my point of view, that's totally true Aisin my friend. The way of loving and "how to love" seems to be a matter of switching perception in favour of becoming able to notice and see that special side of things -which makes love click inside of us.

[survivor]

I should explain what I am doing.

For two years I have thought both books - TFOC and TP - were true/correct. However, recently, inspired by Vesko's post in the 'Evidence of Design in the Universe' topic, I looked into and found significant problems with the reasoning in TFOC. I decided then (last week) that I would attempt to 'purge' my mind of all of my opinions and beliefs concerning the origin of life, the universe, TFOC, TP, and start fresh.

I want to try to be as objective as I possibly can, and look at all of the arguments, and I'd hoped I would again come to the conclusion that the books are correct. I just needed to make sure that I really did have an open mind, in case I only thought I did.

So now, I'm looking for arguments that TP is true. I actually made a list of reasons why I though TP is true 2 years ago, but this week I've managed to refute all of them and I currently have very little reason to believe that the book is true. I've only just begun though . I suppose I will be happy whatever the outcome of all this is, since I will probably be closer to truth.

I recommend that everyone try this, it is 'enlightening'.

Even if it's proven to be fiction, what positive messages can we gather from the book?

[survivor]

Now first thing first.. why do you ppl always QUESTION, QUESTION, QUESTION, you starting to sound like DEBUNKERS... and then you wonder why TOM doesn't answer your questions....

The world dosen't need another dictator, or does it?

This world is so corrupted with NEGATIVITY, no wonder no one does nothing, always questioning...

Questioning is; actually doing something..wouldn't you agree?

at the moment I'm in the process of leaving my job and going back to my country and live in the country side.. oh yeah.. already my friends have been telling how am i gonna live etc etc etc... but you see once you realise who you really are and why you are here everything else is an illusion!!!

How is that going? I too would like to move to the country, what is it like?

Well my friends i hope, you STOP questioning and START doing your own VERIFICATIONS with your MIND that is, hehehe

That ^ dosen't make any sense to me...



Peace love'n'light to you'all.

[alexH]

There's been one thing that's on my mind for quite a while now, and it doesn't make sense for it to be in the book.

From the book :
(Page 2/6)
Ah! It is a nightmare. You see I was right. I’ll pinch myself!’ I accompanied thewords with the action. Ouch!She smiled again. ‘Now are you satisfied, Michel?’‘But if it’s not a dream, why am I here sitting on this rock? Who are thosepeople over there, dressed in the fashion of the last century?’

And then later on page 5/9

People living in this universe suffer neither physically or morally. For example,if I hit you, you would feel no pain, but if the blows were strong enough,although without pain, you could still die from them. This might be difficult to comprehend, but it is so.

...?

How could he have felt the pain? Was he already in the parallel universe when he pinched himself? If so, it makes no sense at all because thao explained that you wouldn't feel the pain...

[Robanan]

he wasn't in the parallel universe when he pinched himself. I thought that is obvious.

[Rezo]

alex thats a very good observation because by the time he asked Thao he was already sitting on the rock, other people from last century therefore had to be in the // universe were there.

Its possible he pinched himself while still in his regular universe b/c Michel asked what is she doing on his property? And Thao said 'we are not on your property, but above it' meaning he could still see it. Then he pinched himself, but after that he was on the rock. Obviously the shift to the other 'earth' was totally under her control, maybe it was that crazy pen she had

[Eon]

This world is so corrupted with NEGATIVITY, no wonder no one does nothing, always questioning...

Well my friends i hope, you STOP questioning and START doing your own VERIFICATIONS with your MIND that is, hehehe

If you ask me, one of the main problems in our society is that there's way too little questioning going on..

And I really have no idea how is it possible for a verification to come up without there being any questioning first. Questioning is also done with a MIND as I recall, not with arms or legs. But hey, that's just me, the questioning kinda guy.

[Zark]

How could he have felt the pain? Was he already in the parallel universe when he pinched himself? If so, it makes no sense at all because thao explained that you wouldn't feel the pain...

Sheeesh, that is a good question!
On a similar yet completely different topic [huh?] try searching for 'Lemuria'... Wikipedia has a good article on this. I am certain you will find it very interesting.

[the_greek]

How does level correlate with dimension if there is any correlation between the two. For example, can a 3D body exist on the Nth level?