Serenity in Murder

[Alisima]

I'm not planning some devious act, but what are your opinions towards murder?? Or, to make it more general, towards all wrongdoings??

Let's say I refrain someone from his freedom of choice. Does that make me bad??

From a moral perspective it would be wrong. In fact, you can easily argue that any violence, including suppression, is bad, and many would agree. But is it??

If violence is really not the way to go, then why is there still so much of it?? Haven't we learned something in the last 1000 years?? or 10000 years??

You could say that violence is due to our ignorance, due to our the lack of proper knowledge and proper education. But is that really true??

Because if it was, then you can fight violence. But then the fighting would be an inner violence.

My point is that you can't fight violence. Ofcourse you can, but it would not resolve anything. In fact, I believe you cannot fight anything, and again, you CAN fight anything but it would only create more inner tension.

So when we see someone doing something which we don't like, should we penalize?? Or shoud we grow to accept it more??

What do you think??

[InfoSource]

Well I think there are certain things we shouldn't accept like murder, rape, fraud, and pedophilia among other things because if these things are common place we would be living in fear all the time from others because they might hurt us,

I think teaching Ethics classes in schools would be good way to educate people on why suppressing people and hurting them isn't a logical thing to do, and eventually what you do to others will come back to you

Ethics in science should be considered to I think, because then scientist can question themselves if they should do what there are doing and continue to pursue it (i.e. genetically modified food, & cloning)

I also think having laws that are absolute are essentially, because some lawyer or activist group can twist laws to their benefits so their lifestyles or so can be socially accepted, which could lead to trouble

Perhaps accepting the fact people have different moral beliefs is beneficial since they can exercise there freedom of choice and learn from it, but for a society I think we need absolute laws so people aren’t wrapped up on what’s right or wrong but focus on enjoying life more

[Zark]

There is a related thread titled: Rules of Engagement

Because if it was, then you can fight violence. But then the fighting would be an inner violence.

There is no need to be timid, it is ok to fight things which are unjust and very harmful (eg: self defence). You can fight fire with fire.

An example of fighting fire with fire: In Australia 'backburning' is an essential method for use in controlling bushfires, allthough it has to be done very carefully. A method we probably learned from Australian Aboriginals as they have been using 'firestick farming' for thousands of years...

from: http://www.ipe.nt.gov.au/whatwedo/bushf ... ntion.html
Backburning to help prevent wildfire spread.

Wildfire’s are a fact a way of life throughout the Territory, even though fuel reduction programs are carried out. Bushfires council staff and volunteers are often called out on a regular basis to help prevent the spread of wildfires, which can sometimes cover thousands of square kilometres. Where population levels are low, some fires can go unchecked for weeks.

[Alisima]

There is no need to be timid, it is ok to fight things which are unjust and very harmful (eg: self defence). You can fight fire with fire.

I am not saying you should be timid. I said the fighting itself is the problem.

An example of fighting fire with fire: In Australia 'backburning' is an essential method for use in controlling bushfires, allthough it has to be done very carefully. A method we probably learned from Australian Aboriginals as they have been using 'firestick farming' for thousands of years...

And it is a good method, however it is not the fighting I refer to. Try emotional, mental and moral fights.

[Leo]

Not sure where I heard this line from but it sums up a lot about my thoughts on the subject of murder...

Each time I draw my sword, I think NOT of who I am about to kill, but, who I am allowing to live.

This reminds me of when Thao and Michel where in the parrellel universe, Thao killed (Murdered) to allow her and Michel to live.

[Alisima]

Not sure where I heard this line from but it sums up a lot about my thoughts on the subject of murder...

Each time I draw my sword, I think NOT of who I am about to kill, but, who I am allowing to live.

This reminds me of when Thao and Michel where in the parrellel universe, Thao killed (Murdered) to allow her and Michel to live.

That is killing with a purpose.

What about random killing, like a central park sniper who shoots whoever he feels like. Is that bad?? Ofcourse society can NOT allow such a person to do that, but is it bad??

[Zark]

What about random killing, like a central park sniper who shoots whoever he feels like. Is that bad?? Ofcourse society can NOT allow such a person to do that, but is it bad??

Yes, it is such a terrible waste of human life, and the amount of grief it causes to the friends and family of the ones he murdered ...

I think that to know what is 'bad' we need to know what is 'good'. My thoughts are that something that is truly 'good' should be beneficial to your spirit and also for that of others. From there it becomes clear that random killing benefits no one and is therefore bad.

A related question that is difficult to answer: what if the killer is on drugs or schizophrenic? Is it then acceptable or forgivable ?

[dhyanapi]

Well, I find your question really intriguing, with a lot of implications...
see, i consider peace a supreme value, but pacifism is a fixed behaviour,
and life isn't a fixed thing, not even a thing...

In a given situation, one can only listen to the heart, where it's written
the universal law. In my view this is called Love, but it has so many shapes...
It really depends on the moment. It may sometimes call for something
which may be called violent, who knows... Our planet is weird, action required may be
impredictably unusual, our notion of good or bad are just mind stuff.

I'm reminded of Krishna's appeal to Arjun in the Bhagavad Gita
where he's convincing the disciple to fight in a horrible war because
it is unavoidable, given the facts. This is deep stuff, man.
We are not in control of our lives, living unconsciously.
We can´t do anything with our programming, but watching them.
Life gives us all the chances to do it, challenging us continuosly
to see how much are we listening to the human heart (always divinely finding
the best action among many options) or to, I'd say, the unhuman mind we all
carry (better said, we are carried by...)

Perhaps only a meditator can bypass the strong influence of our mind
programming, and give command to the divine, universal program
which can be called Love, or Awareness.
Either way we are not in control!
But better choose the master rightly. Perhaps, for us, the only
two categories that are really existential are this:
uncounsciousness = bad
consciousness = good
I fully trust that the way to more consciousness
is the way to real peace and real love...
Let's be more attentive, moment to moment

You see, sometime I get pissed off for such bullsh..s
and only AFTER I realize the foolishness of it.
We need to realize this in the moment, not after it, just too easy!
We don't get graduation from life's school like this...
Do we need an effort in awareness? Gurdjeff says yes.
Krishnamurti says no, just watch.
Osho says both, and this sound closer to truth to me,
but it's a paradox I can't solve with thinking...

Well, enough thoughts for today,

Peace!

[Alisima]

Well, I find your question really intriguing, with a lot of implications...
see, i consider peace a supreme value, but pacifism is a fixed behaviour,
and life isn't a fixed thing, not even a thing...

Peace and pacifism are things our minds have come up with. It are concept which we wrongfully call 'good' or 'spiritual'.

I'm reminded of Krishna's appeal to Arjun in the Bhagavad Gita
where he's convincing the disciple to fight in a horrible war because
it is unavoidable, given the facts. This is deep stuff, man.
We are not in control of our lives, living unconsciously.
We can´t do anything with our programming, but watching them.
Life gives us all the chances to do it, challenging us continuosly
to see how much are we listening to the human heart (always divinely finding
the best action among many options) or to, I'd say, the unhuman mind we all
carry (better said, we are carried by...)

Yes, I recall that. One other thing which comes to mind is that there are 2 ways of violance. Consciously and unconsciously.

Perhaps only a meditator can bypass the strong influence of our mind
programming, and give command to the divine, universal program
which can be called Love, or Awareness.
Either way we are not in control!
But better choose the master rightly. Perhaps, for us, the only
two categories that are really existential are this:
uncounsciousness = bad
consciousness = good
I fully trust that the way to more consciousness
is the way to real peace and real love...
Let's be more attentive, moment to moment

True...

You see, sometime I get pissed off for such bullsh..s
and only AFTER I realize the foolishness of it.
We need to realize this in the moment, not after it, just too easy!

Yes, and no. It is not that you were unaware when you where pissed off. Else, how can you repent afterward?? It is just that you identified yourself with your anger. Thinking YOU are angry. And afterward when the anger goes away, you find you underneath and realise YOU where angry. 2 errors that is. First one where you identified with your anger and secondly repenting because you thought you 'were out of control', 'on a rage'. Which is not true. You only noticed there 2 states. First anger, and then guilt.

We need to realise we are the seeing, not the seer nor the seen. Whether we see anger or guilt.

cheers.

[dhyanapi]

Dear Alisima, I mean that the paradox can't be solved.
Just lived through...

I guess it's a common experience,
You are unaware one moment and find yourself more aware the next...
Guilt, for me, is out of question, the whole art I try to learn
is to sweetly come back to myself when a clearer vision happens
knowing well that perhaps it will not last long...
so what?

We aren't in control even about tripping sometime to be in control...
Sometimes I know, remember, that we are not subjects,
just illusionary false centers, egoes; basically we ARE NOT.

Sometimes I forget. But I more and more realize that
even making an effort in self-remembering this happens to be
basically just a GIFT. Divine Grace you may call it.

Well, it's not easy to speak about such subtleties...
One has to live this paradox at his own best.

It becomes more and more peaceful according to the degree
of trust in life that one feels in the heart.

Don't you forget sometimes?
It's an intellectual understanding that you try to share?

Anyway, thank a lot for the precious imputs...

be blessed... Ciao

[Alisima]

Dear Alisima, I mean that the paradox can't be solved.
Just lived through...

I guess it's a common experience,
You are unaware one moment and find yourself more aware the next...
Guilt, for me, is out of question, the whole art I try to learn
is to sweetly come back to myself when a clearer vision happens
knowing well that perhaps it will not last long...
so what?

True...

We aren't in control even about tripping sometime to be in control...
Sometimes I know, remember, that we are not subjects,
just illusionary false centers, egoes; basically we ARE NOT.

Sometimes I forget. But I more and more realize that
even making an effort in self-remembering this happens to be
basically just a GIFT. Divine Grace you may call it.

Well, it's not easy to speak about such subtleties...
One has to live this paradox at his own best.

It becomes more and more peaceful according to the degree
of trust in life that one feels in the heart.

Well, I don't know what to say anyone, guess that basically means I agree with you

Don't you forget sometimes?
It's an intellectual understanding that you try to share?

Yeah, I forget. I sometimes even forget that I am forgetting.

But no matter how many times I forget, before the next I always seem to remember.

[bomohwkl]

Alisima wrote

Let's say I refrain someone from his freedom of choice. Does that make me bad??

From a moral perspective it would be wrong. In fact, you can easily argue that any violence, including suppression, is bad, and many would agree. But is it??

You are exercising your freedom of choice to refrain someone who is excersing his freedom of choice to do "devious" acts.

So, who is supressing who?

A question, that is.......

Zark wrote:

There is no need to be timid, it is ok to fight things which are unjust and very harmful (eg: self defence). You can fight fire with fire.

You cannot use fire to extinguish the burning fire. You cannot kill flaming hatred with hatred. You can kill the enemy but you never kill hate.


Leo wrote

Each time I draw my sword, I think NOT of who I am about to kill, but, who I am allowing to live.

Emphasis is mine.

For he who lives in a sword will die under the sword.

[Bastian]

You cannot use fire to extinguish the burning fire. You cannot kill flaming hatred with hatred. You can kill the enemy but you never kill hate.

Yes of course violence and hatred are very harmful and move in a vicious circle. When Thao killed those people in the parallel dimension I would assume it was not motivated by hatred. It would seem to be motivated by (a) what was most beneficial for the spiritual evolution of those creatures (ie. to be liberated) and (b) self defence.

I placed 'self defence' second because obviously she could have disabled them without killing them...