Quote by Sandra RogersThose born with mental or physical afflictions are more spiritually advanced than others, born to help others evolve spiritually.
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How does it come? I do not quite understand the meaning of this sentence. Any ideas?
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Quote by Sandra RogersThose born with mental or physical afflictions are more spiritually advanced than others, born to help others evolve spiritually.
Like the author of "A brief history of time", Stephen Hawking, for example? (the only prominent that came to my mind. guess because it had been discussed on the TFOC forum)Vesko wrote: It could also be that you want to test / remind / limit yourself in some aspect so that you are forced to turn to other aspects of yourself that you would not have enhanced had you been healthy.
You mean authistic people for example? Is it in order for us to notice their mental capabilites for examle that they do appear they way they are (authists seem to have mental afflictions)?One could argue that all mental illnesses have their roots in serious personal mistakes, but what about physical causes of mental illnesses, i.e. you could be very evolved, but if your brain or certain nerves are damaged, you could still appear to be unevolved.
What do you mean by "collective karmic debt"? Please eloborate.Being born with a damaged body following a nuclear catastrophe does not entail that you yourself are not developed spiritually, but you, as a part of the community that caused the nuclear catastrophe, have to pay a collective karmic debt, hence the illness.
I don`t agree, in this case everybody is limited in a similar way, so that you can`t see this as a limitation, it`s "normal" then...It wouldn`t have an effect on the development.Being born with a damaged body following a nuclear catastrophe does not entail that you yourself are not developed spiritually, but you, as a part of the community that caused the nuclear catastrophe, have to pay a collective karmic debt, hence the illness.
Yes, Down's syndrome and even more terrible afflictions. There is so much suffering on this planet and we as a society seem to be doing so little about it.yothu wrote:Very interesting. I though about trisomy 21, that parents and other members of the family learn much about love and tolerance when raising and living with such children and adults.
Yes. He must have learnt a lot. But it is bad that he sees technology as the driving force of human evolution. I wonder what it will take to change his mind on that important point.yothu wrote:Like the author of "A brief history of time", Stephen Hawking, for example? (the only prominent that came to my mind. guess because it had been discussed on the TFOC forum)
Not only autistic people, but them, too. I recently saw the famous Kim Peek, an autist, in an interview. The things he does are almost unbelieveable -- mentally he is above 99.999% of the people on Earth, and yet he does seem to have some mental afflictions.yothu wrote:You mean authistic people for example? Is it in order for us to notice their mental capabilites for examle that they do appear they way they are (authists seem to have mental afflictions)?Vesko wrote:One could argue that all mental illnesses have their roots in serious personal mistakes, but what about physical causes of mental illnesses, i.e. you could be very evolved, but if your brain or certain nerves are damaged, you could still appear to be unevolved.
Yes, I would say that we have shared responsibility to keep the planet healthy, and we are in the same boat, as the book says. Nature is incomparably powerful with any of us, and everyone should watch our steps with respect to her.yothu wrote:What do you mean by "collective karmic debt"? Please eloborate.Vesko wrote:Being born with a damaged body following a nuclear catastrophe does not entail that you yourself are not developed spiritually, but you, as a part of the community that caused the nuclear catastrophe, have to pay a collective karmic debt, hence the illness.
Is it the extreme of the lesson that a community, a society has the duty of preserving and passing on a healthy and undamaged natural environment? I believe there is a huge complexity of what can be learnt by such a collective experience. eg. Making the best out of you have, learning to take other fellow beings into account and the consequences for them when taking action on a great scale. It is all individual in the first place, isn't it?
Yes, but we should have in mind that the more spiritually evolved you are, the more physical handicaps are just useless obstacles that unnecessarily slow you down.trumpet_is_cool wrote:I`m born with some physical Limitations (Asthma,allergics,dermatitis...Asthma and some allergics disappeard over the last years), i don`t agree that peoples with inborn limitations are born more evolved BUT the possibility that they get more evolved is higher....
Especially in the past when I had not been actively countering the allergy, I had been naturally forced to stay more indoors when the allergy strikes, and this had definitely isolated me from others to a certain degree that was not insignificant. And exactly as you say, I think I have had more intellectual pursuits than I would have had otherwise. You put it well that "without illness you have to really choose yourself...", because making the best choices at times when you are most informed about your spiritual evolution (for most of us, that time is between reincarnation), increases your chances for future evolution to actually occur.trumpet_is_cool wrote:Imagine that you had dermatitis and Asthma (Or an other limitation), the other kids won`t touch you or play with you and you can`t do sports....What would you do ? Wouldn`t you not start to think/learn more and search for acception through knowledge ? The Illness forces you to become more mental and MAYBE spiritual advanced...Without an Illness you have really to choose yourself if you wan`t to become more advanced or if you would like to "bimbo around" with the masses
Not sure what exactly you don't agree with. The collective karmic debt in this case just means that since we are all part of Nature, and Nature has been severely disturbed, we all have to suffer the consequences no matter who and which group of people actually detonated the bomb. And of course it is a limitation -- everyone is limited, though. It would have an effect on spiritual development, too -- it will slow you down. Or perhaps I am missing something and have used a misnomer?trumpet_is_cool wrote:I don`t agree, in this case everybody is limited in a similar way, so that you can`t see this as a limitation, it`s "normal" then...It wouldn`t have an effect on the development.Vesko wrote:Being born with a damaged body following a nuclear catastrophe does not entail that you yourself are not developed spiritually, but you, as a part of the community that caused the nuclear catastrophe, have to pay a collective karmic debt, hence the illness.
I don`t agree, in this case everybody is limited in a similar way, so that you can`t see this as a limitation, it`s "normal" then...It wouldn`t have an effect on the development.
Put it in this way: If erverybody is born ,for example, with open sores due to a nuclear war it would be "normal" to have open sores, nobody would avoid contact with you or verbal hurt you because everybody has similar physical limitations and know how it is/feels...Not sure what exactly you don't agree with. The collective karmic debt in this case just means that since we are all part of Nature, and Nature has been severely disturbed, we all have to suffer the consequences no matter who and which group of people actually detonated the bomb. And of course it is a limitation -- everyone is limited, though. It would have an effect on spiritual development, too -- it will slow you down. Or perhaps I am missing something and have used a misnomer?
Yes, the physical body does have an immense influence on spiritual development. The book never says don't cultivate your physical body or don't think about it. It says don't focus too much on it and focus mainly on the mind instead. The physical body is extremely important. From the book (chapter "A Different Alien and My Former Lives", page 127 in the current edition):trumpet_is_cool wrote:What i didn`t understand is why a physical limitation should slow down your spiritual development ???
TP:
"At the moment, most responsibility is taken for the physical body, but this is a serious mistake. If your psyche is poor, it will influence your physical appearance accordingly, but, regardless, your physical body will wear out and die one day whereas your psyche, being part of your Astral body, never dies. On the contrary, the more you cultivate your mind, the less you will be burdened by body and the quicker you will proceed through your cycle of lives."
This doesn`t mean that you didn`t progress fast if you are physical limited, the key is that you cultivate your mind and not your body, if the physical body had an influence of spiritual development all supermodels or very healthy persons would be "enlightened" persons...
By having physical afflictions, one's hands become barer, how much so depends on the number and serousness of the afflictions. The less bare one's hands are (the less afflictions one has and the better one's body is), the faster and better one can potentially work (develop spiritually). Note I said potentially. One may have a lot of tools, but become complacent about it and show off/brag about them a lot, doing little useful work (supermodels?). Or one could have significantly fewer and less powerful tools, and use them wisely for hard work, and pull way ahead before the one with the more numerous/greater tools. But there will come a point when even with the hardest work one will not be able to progress unless one obtains a new, different and/or better tool. Why all developed yogis and the people of Thiaoouba seem to be free of physical afflictions? Why aren't they loaded with illnesses? Because at their level of evolution this will just slow them down and even make further progress impossible -- but note, at their level of evolution. The Thiaooubans even have significantly different bodies than us, to aid them in their evolution. Their bodies even have some seeming luxuries such as perfect night vision (see at night as well as they can during the day)."The physical body is but a tool. A sculptor's chisel and hammer are tools; they will never reach beauty on their own, but they contribute to it in the hands of an artist. A wonderful statue could not have been created with the artist's bare hands."
"The physical body is but a tool. A sculptor's chisel and hammer are tools; they will never reach beauty on their own, but they contribute to it in the hands of an artist. A wonderful statue could not have been created with the artist's bare hands."
Okay, then we have here different opinons...For me is the physical Body THE tool,designed for the specific Task in this life and it doesn`t matter for my spiritual development speed how much i "tune it up"....I agree that mental work will influence my physical Body [For example: I get rid of my Hay feaver since i started to meditate]...I`m pretty sure that i would w/o my limitations bimbo around instead of typing this post I don`t need muscle masses or a perfect skin or even my legs to meditate/think and develop spiritually...By having physical afflictions, one's hands become barer, how much so depends on the number and serousness of the afflictions. The less bare one's hands are (the less afflictions one has and the better one's body is), the faster and better one can potentially work (develop spiritually). Note I said potentially. One may have a lot of tools, but become complacent about it and show off/brag about them a lot, doing little useful work (supermodels?). Or one could have significantly fewer and less powerful tools, and use them wisely for hard work, and pull way ahead before the one with the more numerous/greater tools. But there will come a point when even with the hardest work one will not be able to progress unless one obtains a new, different and/or better tool.
TP:Why all developed yogis and the people of Thiaoouba seem to be free of physical afflictions? Why aren't they loaded with illnesses?
Some (ALL ?) people learn the most about spiritually when they die, the people from the nuclear blast will not have long lives so eventually they make even faster progress.In the case of a nuclear blast, I think a lot of people's evolution will be slowed down, because their current physical bodies will have to die prematurely, and then be reborn, and perhaps even those bodies will die prematurely and even several ones following them. According to the book, when one dies, one's material memory is erased. Material knowledge is necessary for obtaining spiritual knowledge, therefore one will have to waste time learning things one could have already known before dying as a result of the nuclear blast. It's like, when you are rebooting a computer (a contemporary inexpensive one), its RAM memory is erased and you cannot do any work with it until the boot process finishes and the data is loaded from the hard disk, which takes noticeable time.
I don`t say you should suppress it, but people are so keen to do "wellness","sports","Body Building","healthy living"....Do you really think that this helps them with spiritual development ? Your lifetime is nothing in the relation to the age of the Universe and should be used wisely...However there is no "black or white", there are degrees of "Suppression"....It is also a huge difference if you are born with limitations or if you limitate yourself (e.g. eating so much that you are getting fat and in turn ill) but even in this case your life will be shortened what can also be some kind of "faster spiritual development"People are conditioned to suppress their physical body, and no wonder that after some time passes, people revolt against it and plunge into body worship, which is equally wrong as suppressing one's physicality.
Do you seriously think this? Why do yogis then need to learn complex physical breathing exercises? Why does a typical yoga program passed to us from millenia contains typically hundreds of postures that are to be practiced for decades during one's lifetime in order to prepare one's body to better serve the spirit?trumpet_is_cool wrote:Okay, then we have here different opinons...For me is the physical Body THE tool,designed for the specific Task in this life and it doesn`t matter for my spiritual development speed how much i "tune it up"....
I think you do need quite a bit of muscle mass in order to meditate successfully and lead a normal physically active life. Also I bet you really need your legs -- not having legs and/or arms is severely crippling and inevitably effects the rest of your body considerably negatively. All people who are paralyzed or lack some limbs have very significant problems caused by their forced sedentary life. You wouldn't even think to want to be like them.I agree that mental work will influence my physical Body [For example: I get rid of my Hay feaver since i started to meditate]...I`m pretty sure that i would w/o my limitations bimbo around instead of typing this post I don`t need muscle masses or a perfect skin or even my legs to meditate/think and develop spiritually...
Yes, that is true, but the previous quote I gave is true, too.TP:Why all developed yogis and the people of Thiaoouba seem to be free of physical afflictions? Why aren't they loaded with illnesses?
"the more you cultivate your mind, the less you will be burdened by body"
It indeed does work both ways and the people of Thiaoouba say nothing to deny it. "Healthy body, healthy mind", which is a very popular saying, is wisdom distilled through the ages.I don`t think it works in the other direction like the common esoteric knowledge is...However...I can`t proof it...
Yes, you get from the last point and you can set up limitations and all, but do you realize that it takes 9 months before you are born, as well as years afterwards until you are fully conscious. While those early life periods pass, one is not learning at one's full capacity. Imagine how much we would learn if we stayed all the time as babies, and our physical bodies never grew and developed?Some (ALL ?) people learn the most about spiritually when they die, the people from the nuclear blast will not have long lives so eventually they make even faster progress.
Your material Memory will always be erased. If the material knowledge is relevant for your spiritual progress: How would you get sure that a yogi or you continue your spiritual development in the next live ? It would be SO easy that you regress due to materialism and didn`t choose the spiritual way... I think you will continue from your last point and to get sure that you do it you MIGHT get limitations as "protection" to spend too much time with material things and get faster "back on track",This "protection" might not be needed at higher Evolved / less materialistic Planets...That`s just a tought that MIGHT had Sandra too
Haven't said that you said you should suppress it, only noted it because it is related to what you said.I don`t say you should suppress it, but people are so keen to do "wellness","sports","Body Building","healthy living"....Do you really think that this helps them with spiritual development ? Your lifetime is nothing in the relation to the age of the Universe and should be used wisely...However there is no "black or white", there are degrees of "Suppression"....It is also a huge difference if you are born with limitations or if you limitate yourself (e.g. eating so much that you are getting fat and in turn ill) but even in this case your life will be shortened what can also be some kind of "faster spiritual development"
Hey this is exactly what happened since my first meditations! I later read the yoga stuff about the Bandhas etc. and then thought "well...That happened to me,why it is necessary to practise it ?", i had also this feel of the kundulani "energy" walking towards the spine, it tooks a few meditations over two weeks to let this energy travel to the head...During this awakening the body would automatically take several positions, in order to cleanse the body.
You should simply let these things happen. In time they will subdue. You should not place much importance upon it. Just like I said, cleasing. There are people stuck in this stage because they find the energy and sensations very amusing. They think it is a sign of progress, well it is, but there is much more beyond that.trumpet_is_cool wrote:Hey this is exactly what happened since my first meditations! I later read the yoga stuff about the Bandhas etc. and then thought "well...That happened to me,why it is necessary to practise it ?", i had also this feel of the kundulani "energy" walking towards the spine, it tooks a few meditations over two weeks to let this energy travel to the head...
There are still "strange" things happening during meditation like muscle activities that move like waves over the corso,a suddenly stretching/winding of the whole body,an enormous vibrating or an expanse of the abs (felts as if it must look as if i`m pregnant ) followed by a suddenly collapse of the expansed abs and then a huge flow of "energy" through the whole body what is always a great sensation...For me it is as if the "soul" tryes to escape from the body but the body didn`t allow it, it`s a feel as if you are fixed with chains and try to break them...Plus there are also the other sensations during meditation like the high sound,feeling the activity of the chakras,sometimes Visions (i find them a little disturbing,they usally comes if i`m very tired) etc. But i`m far off-topic now....Sorry
Yes, that would be much wiser instead of a word-fight. Anyway, I do not fully agree with you, but from a certain viewpoint, you are absolutly correct. Yet, from another viewpoint, you are not. Truth depends on how you look at it.[/quote]Vesko wrote:I disagree with most of what both of you said, but I too respect your opinion as my own and wish you all the best on the path you have chosen. Perhaps after some time we could discuss the subject again.