What is Enlightenment?

[Alisima]

I am Chief of Staff of a McDonald's subsidiary. My motives are clearly good for me - and I truly feel that way - as I provide food for hungry fellows (my good action).

Some will not agree with me that my actions are good despite the fact that my motives could be. Some won't even agree with me that my motives are good. Yet, I am convinced I am absolutely doing right.

That's a trivial problem I see with ethics. What might be good for me might not for anybody else and vice versa. That's the reason why I think it is not an easy task to set "basic rules" for a group of people that want to live together. (I'm not really working at McDonald's)

You are correct. Idea's about what is right and wrong are highly subjective.

The 'trance-ending' is not mine, it is Stephen Wolinsky's toy. It comes from transcending. It describes the working of transcending. Namely to end a trance.

If you were to end the trance of delusion and ignorance and thus transcend them, you will become enlightened. However, you can only speak of enlightenment if there is delusion and ignorance, for how can there be transcendence when there is no object to be transcended?? In other words, there is no enlightenment by the time you have reached it.

He, Stephen Wolinsky, relates "trance" to "sleep" in this ^ context, do I understand correctly? Just like the kind of trance that you're in when you're in a shopping mall or watching sales t.v. and some commercials, right?

Yes, that is what he means. Trance, a state of mind in which consciousness is fragile and voluntary action is poor or missing; a state resembling deep sleep. The ending of trance is often called 'waking up'.

I am wondering, what books of stephen have you read?? Did you also knew that stephen was 'disciple' of Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj, a pivotal character in the Advaita Vedanta (non-duality)?? For anyone who is interested, I have one of Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj books available in html for free.

[Robanan]

When the Zen -so called masters- talk about enlightment, seeking for it and all the other related things they say when they talk about it. They are actually talking about the experience of meeting with the light, I don't wonder that there is so much self contradicting, sensless philosophy in the teachings of those so called masters (like the awareness article posted by Alisima under thistopic) Since Tom explains the following intresting points regarding encounters with the light:

There are two things that are very characteristic to close encounters with The Light of the Higher Self.
The first is that every time you have a clear recollection that you understood absolutely everything that you ever wanted to understand when you reached The Light.
The second characteristic thing is that you are not able to remember any details when you come back and recover from the bliss. Recovering details takes days, weeks, months, years or even a lifetime of thinking and intensive conscious study after your encounters with your Higher Self.
It seems that all details are purposely “erased” from your memory. You remember only a “summary” of the encounter.
For example - you remember the fact, that you had no questions - simply because everything was crystal clear to you, but you do not remember any particular answers.

-The freedom of choice book, Page 74

So even after such an encounter we are still left to do the homeworks with our own understanding, in it's best case this is exactly why most so called zen masters fail in their arguments about existence and the universe. They simply don't remember anything and are left to make their own minds and the minds of their followers about the what and the why which they can't explain.

So what's the point of seeking such an encounter anyway?

I think enlightenment is a particular stage in spiritual development. It does not matter what the stage is, although the term is used primarily for people who have attained the higher stages or the highest stage. I do not see how enlightenment does not hold, for example, for a drug addict who manages to overcome their addiction. The greatest enlightenment, from a physical human's perspective, is joining God, possible only after lower stages have been attained.
If I were able to meet my Higher Self, I would get that as an indication of *a bit of enlightenment*, but I would not classify myself as enlightened for the same reason that "no one [on Earth] should ever adopt a position as a master" (chapter "Who was Christ?", page 146). Christ has said the same in the Bible -- you are only brothers and sisters, no one among you is a master, I, God's son sitting next to him, am the master.

From Vesko's post I want to conclude that such an encounter is a step forward through the path of spiritual development as for now I can only think of psychological reasons regarding the motivative effects one such encounter could have on a person apart from it being a magnificent personal spiritual experience and achievement on its own. But is that all? What's coming after? is the person who has had a peek through his/her private interface with the Great intellect but doesn't remember any details to be considered as an enlightened person?

This depends on how we have defined enlightment first place.

My definition of enlightment is this:
We aim to reach and eventually get to what we reach for. We get lost each time we get to what we aimed for, enlightment happens each time we rediscover the path to progress.

[Alisima]

When the Zen -so called masters- talk about enlightment, seeking for it and all the other related things they say when they talk about it. They are actually talking about the experience of meeting with the light....

From my understanding Zen regards the light as useless phenomenon. A sign of progress but not something you want to hold on to.

So even after such an encounter we are still left to do the homeworks with our own understanding, in it's best case this is exactly why most so called zen masters fail in their arguments about existence and the universe. They simply don't remember anything and are left to make their own minds and the minds of their followers about the what and the why which they can't explain.

Like I said in a different post, the truth of existence, of the universe and of reality cannot be said in words. Perhapse that is why Zen masters have trouble conveying the message.

[Robanan]

Why would we need to experience the bliss by ourselves then if we could try to explain and communicate it by words?

We use words to communicate information not feelings and experiences.

[Alisima]

Why would we need to experience the bliss by ourselves then if we could try to explain and communicate it by words?

For we can't explain it by words.

We use words to communicate information not feelings and experiences.

Lets say there is an experience which none of us have experienced, and it is not in the dictionary. Then there comes a guy who claims to have such an experience, how can he explain it?? He can't, because there are no words for it, and even if there where words, we would not understand those words for we have not experienced the meaning of the words ourselves.

Similar to a child who doesn't understand sexual attraction. We can explain it to him, but the only thing he gets is an intellectual understanding of the process, not of the experience itself.

So, words are limited, we can only explain what we already know.

[Robanan]

We use words to explain and communicate everything that can be translated into human cognitive information.
New words would need explainable and understandable definitions anyway. When something is out of context for a group of people that's it, it's out of context, full stop. It even doesn't matter if that thing is the truth or not. It's just words they don't ask much and don't need more. Experiences are to be experienced, Words are to be written, said, heard, created, defined, thought about.

The difference in our arguments is that I try to identify and magnify the purpose in all things as you want to proove that there is no purpose to be talked about at all since all is just magical brain chemistry.

Words are limited because what we know is limited, it is true that we can explain what we know only, so one reasonable solution would be to find out more, know more, and understand more while inspiring others to do the same, isn't this, all that progress is about?

[Alisima]

The difference in our arguments is that I try to identify and magnify the purpose in all things as you want to proove that there is no purpose to be talked about at all since all is just magical brain chemistry.

Well, aren't most things just magical brain chemistry??

Words are limited because what we know is limited, it is true that we can explain what we know only, so one reasonable solution would be to find out more, know more, and understand more while inspiring others to do the same, isn't this, all that progress is about?

Knowledge binds. For instance, musicians. I know a lot of musicians who have studied too much music theory and because of that became uncreative and usually stick to pre-defined patterns. It is a shame for they can no longer 'think outside the box', and are, quite literally, bound by what they know.

[Robanan]

Well, aren't most things just magical brain chemistry??

No.

Knowledge binds. For instance, musicians. I know a lot of musicians who have studied too much music theory and because of that became uncreative and usually stick to pre-defined patterns. It is a shame for they can no longer 'think outside the box', and are, quite literally, bound by what they know.

In general all the knowledge of the universe is useless for the person who doesn't have any knowledge about the self, the knowledge those musicians acquired didn't bring them a deep understaing of music. Knowledge comes from within, music comes from within, the source is inside, what knowledge or music is outside are just recordings of the fact that the source is inside. I know of such people myself, I myself being a musician. They cousciously have chosen to end and limit their progress. It's a shame indeed.

You are a musician too Alisima, our mission is to Rock their world!

[Robanan]

Hey Alisima do you know what enlightment is? Check this out:

http://www.propellerheads.se/

Look for "Reason 3.0" It's a music making software system. Virtually no limits.

[bomohwkl]

Well, aren't most things just magical brain chemistry??

No.

Knowledge binds. For instance, musicians. I know a lot of musicians who have studied too much music theory and because of that became uncreative and usually stick to pre-defined patterns. It is a shame for they can no longer 'think outside the box', and are, quite literally, bound by what they know.

In general all the knowledge of the universe is useless for the person who doesn't have any knowledge about the self, the knowledge those musicians acquired didn't bring them a deep understaing of music. Knowledge comes from within, music comes from within, the source is inside, what knowledge or music is outside are just recordings of the fact that the source is inside. I know of such people myself, I myself being a musician. They cousciously have chosen to end and limit their progress. It's a shame indeed.

You are a musician too Alisima, our mission is to Rock their world!

I have to agree to some extent .Studying too much (analytically) can really hamper your creativity. Robanan, can you explain how does music come from within. Can you make it clearer?

[trumpet_is_cool]

Robanan, can you explain how does music come from within. Can you make it clearer?

I`m not Robanan but i would like to share my experience with that...
You have moments as musician where you can totally switch-off and just play beautifully...It is as if you are remote controlled, it are the moments where you ask yourself after this phrases "Have i really played THAT yet ?"...I`m always very thankfull for such moments because i can`t conciously decide to "let go",either it happens or not.However....If i think too much about technical stuff the solos get`s usually *** or boring...Notice also that many musicans like to close their eyes or to look upwards during their improvisation (me too) it helps me to focus on the music...

I`m curious if other musicans have made similar experiences ?

[Robanan]

Studying too much (analytically) can really hamper your creativity

I agree.

Robanan, can you explain how does music come from within. Can you make it clearer?

Yes bomohwkl, music comes from within as either you imagine, design(compose) and play the music using your intellect or you (as trumpet_is_cool explains) play it as it comes naturally to you;

I`m not Robanan but i would like to share my experience with that...
You have moments as musician where you can totally switch-off and just play beautifully...It is as if you are remote controlled, it are the moments where you ask yourself after this phrases "Have i really played THAT yet ?"...I`m always very thankfull for such moments because i can`t conciously decide to "let go",either it happens or not.However....If i think too much about technical stuff the solos get`s usually *** or boring...Notice also that many musicans like to close their eyes or to look upwards during their improvisation (me too) it helps me to focus on the music...

I`m curious if other musicans have made similar experiences ?

I have made almost exactly the same experiences, it happens to me all the time because most of the time when I play music I do it for myself, I play what I like to hear myself; I clean myself from wanting to impress others (or following any goals whatsoever) then with a clean mind and a free heart I let myself rejoice in harmony with the music (inspiration?) that starts flowing through me.

Knowledge can be limiting only when you bind yourself with it, nevertheless gaining, creating, learning and using it is absolutely necessary.

[Vesko]

I have to agree to some extent .Studying too much (analytically) can really hamper your creativity.

I am not sure if you meant that applying / trying to apply analytical thinking to everything hampers creativity, in which case I do not concur, or you meant that creativity is hampered if you do not have time to explore your emotions and intuition, in which case I concur. My opinion is that analytical thinking is always good and we should strive to do and maintain it at all times. What is actually bad is if the study or work you are doing, or any other activity, prevents the experience of a wide range of emotion and intuition, or leads you to just experience them without analyzing them rationally. I have just made a longer post explaining what I think about that on the topic "Uncompromising Inner Strength?" in the "Unrelated Topics" forum.

It is certainly right, however, that many universities and work environments do not really stimulate creativity, despite hyping in their PR materials that they are all about critical thinking and innovation. What they actually do instead is to promote conformism, deplete energy and enthusiasm for study and work, and minimize fundamental research and other work based on such research. In my opinion, that is because the curriculum / study / work regimen is not designed to develop balanced human beings, which in turn is a result of the materialistic focus and the underestimation of each individual's inestimable worth and capability. I think it would not be incorrect and unfair to say that in the vast majority of cases, a great number of facets in people's lives are ignored in study and work dictated by "authorities", and people are treated primarily like very specific instruments and cogs in the machine to the exclusion of the rest of their human qualities and abilities. Little those "authorities" know that if more of human nature is taken into account and as many of the good aspects as possible are stimulated in the process of study and work, people are going to be so incomparably happier and more productive.

[Bastian]

What they actually do instead is to promote conformism, deplete energy and enthusiasm

I think you hit the nail on the head vesko.

I play a little bit of classical guitar, and I also know what people mean when they say things like 'don't be over analytical' or 'don't think, just play' because of the way their creativity becomes stifled under certain conditions. What I think is happening is that they become ever so slightly critical of every little action they make and that their creativity disappears in a cloud of self-doubt. Similar to the way fear is said to constipate the flow of energy (chi / prana / thought ?).

[Bastian]

Knowledge binds.

Hmm.. I would say that True knowledge does not bind, but rather sets you free. But then our minds would typically be so filled with junk knowledge that we are of course bound and enslaved by it.

So then 'emptying' our minds is quite a liberating experience when compared to the usual pathetic, enslaving and darkened state of our minds.

"And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. " -- Jesus

"Emancipate yourself from mental slavery. None but ourselves can free our minds." -- Bob Marley